(12-16-2017, 09:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Instead of rationally explaining the reason behind all these, let me just shoot the most simple one down:

Mathis came in the league in 2005, Livings came in the league in 2006

Wow, really shot that one down lol

Mathis was clearly better than Livings, just stop this stuff.

What about starting Peko over Sims all those years Bfine? Ha

(12-16-2017, 12:35 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Geno Atkins sat his rookie year after leading the preseason in sacks
Carlos Dunlap couldn't get "starts" or run downs and Marvin was critical of him publicly
Carl Lawson has how many snaps? With 7.5 sacks?
Nick Vigil sat as a rookie
Jake Fisher sat as a rookie
Darqueze Dennard sat as a rookie
Shawn Williams and George Iloka sat as rookies
Mo Sanu and Marvin Jones barely played as rookies and Armon Binns started the first 5 games of the season until he was so bad he got cut.
Clint Boling barely played as a rookie
Michael Johnson sat as a rookie

Think about this: The 3 key players on the best d-line in team history all sat out their rookie seasons (Atkins, Johnson) or were sitting behind Geathers for some downs while in Marv's doghouse publicly (Dunlap). The best LB in team history needed an injury to break the starting lineup even though his talent was painfully obvious early. Same case with Atkins leading the league in sacks his rookie preseason.

Just because we've played some rookies doesn't mean Marvin doesn't have a tendency to "redshirt" talented rookies if there's a solid incumbent vet. Even Gresh and Eifert got their starts in 2 TE sets. The shell of Reggie Kelly was still starting in Gresh's rookie year. Gresh was still starting for Eifert's. So it's not like either took a vet's starting job away. Same deal with Shipley, Zeitler and Bodine. Did they take a starting gig from an incumbent vet? No.

The examples of a rookie taking a job from an incumbent vet are too rare.

Great post as usual Shake, thanks for backing up my thoughts. Didn't want to go through all that.

(12-16-2017, 06:53 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Wow, really shot that one down lol

Mathis was clearly better than Livings, just stop this stuff.

Nope, Mathis was clearly better than Livings; however, he was also in the league longer, so it really shoots down the "Marvin always plays the older guys over the younger, more talented guys" fallacy. If anything Marvin made the mistake of playing the younger guy, just like I think he's doing this year with Mixon over Gio.

Not sure what stuff I should stop. Is it debunking the fallacy? 

(12-16-2017, 05:34 PM)McC Wrote: It shows smooth route running, quickness off the line, great acceleration, excellent hands, balance and body control.  You know, insignificant shit like that, also known as everything you'd want in a WR, who was kept on the bench for a team where nobody but AJ could get open way too much of the time.  Nah, he had nothing to offer at all.  Why would an offense as explosive as ours want that guy on the field?

. Yes, he did. In practice and cherry picked. Time will tell on this guy. I actually believe that he will always have health problems.

(12-16-2017, 05:48 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Methinks the most likely thing is that we are frustrated at what we are seeing on the field and since we (practically) know Marvin won't be here we are hoping beyond hope that John Ross doing zilch this year was due to Marvin Lewis refusing to play him.  Ross will be here next year, Marvin won't, so we hope our problem of having 0 good WRs besides AJ will be solved as soon as we have a new HC who isn't hell bent on keeping Ross down.

Additionally, we have a tendency to really go overboard when it comes to evaluating our WR corps around here.  Just off the top of my head Armon Binns, Denarius Moore, Mario Alfred, [can't remember his first name] Wright, Cody Core, Jerome Simpson, that Kumerwowow guy, Rishaun Salmonize, Malone and so on, were all supposed to be great if Marvin Lewis would just get his head out of his arse and play them.  We really love our WRs' potential until the guy actually gets on the field and then it's time to wonder why we aren't giving the next guy a shot.

Bonus points for people arguing that a WR's draft position doesn't matter when we are talking up a late round WR, but then saying we should play Ross because he obviously has first round talent.

Short version?  We are really hoping Ross is great and that it's Marvin's fault he wasn't being great this year and that Marvin won't be here to keep him from being great next year.  My cynical take?  I really wish Steeler fans were sitting around dreaming of a guy with 0 catches saving their team.
I’m more upset that Erickson didn’t get more play time after actually producing on the field. It seems like I read something earlier in the year about Ross saying that he gets winded really easily. Does anyone remember that?


I'm not trying to sound like a smartass here, but are we sure those clips significantly separate Ross from Malone, Core, Boyd, or Erickson? I mean, I really hope Ross is some dynamite WR that is just waiting for a HC who won't refuse to unleash him on our foes, but that takes an amount of optimism that decades of Bengals fandom have beaten out of me.

(12-15-2017, 04:58 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Oh there's a reason. We just don't know what exactly it is. As for the vendetta against winning games? That is completely false... He just sucks as a head coach. 

Yes He Does! -- especially during games!
As we all know, there are three sides to a story. In this case there is Ross' side; Lewis' side; and the third side --THE TRUTH (which is what we all would like to know).

(12-16-2017, 10:52 PM)Derrick Wrote: Yes He Does! -- especially during games!
As we all know, there are three sides to a story. In this case there is Ross' side; Lewis' side; and the third side --THE TRUTH (which is what we all would like to know).

One main set of facts is that Ross has a history of injuries, he was injured in the pre-season, and he is on IR now with an injury he himself says he had for a while and hid from the team.  This just doesn't seem a whole lot deeper than any of the other 1st round picks we took that were injured/not ready in their first year.  I always just assumed we do that because our GM can't get fired and he's not worried about players delivering ASAP.  He's got all the time in the world...well, grim reaper aside.

(12-15-2017, 11:49 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: As for this video, it kinda puts a dent in all this "he must be terrible" talk (which is mostly coming from people who didn't like the pick in the first place).

Not really, this is gym shorts football. I've seen Ross on the field when it counts twice, he fumbled once, and stopped in the middle of his go route the second time. This video shows me he has potential, but his play when it counts says he sucks.....

(12-15-2017, 11:49 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Word is that Marvin didn't want him and has been extra hard on him because of it.

As for this video, it kinda puts a dent in all this "he must be terrible" talk (which is mostly coming from people who didn't like the pick in the first place).

I am not so sure it does put a dent in it. Never forget Uncoverable Scout-Team-Megatron Binns.

Or how Dennard was the "best rookie CB I have ever seen" according to Marvin.... in practices.

Practice, preseason, and regular season are vastly different things. Marvin is almost certainly not blameless, but I still think the majority of this is on Ross.

(12-15-2017, 12:03 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: How do you know they didn't? I'm pretty sure Lazor and Tobin don't have any authority over Marvin, so they couldn't really do anything. I think it's either that Brown let's Marvin have way more control over the team than what some people think, or Marvin knows that Mike won't fire him mid season and it's Marvin's last year so he's doing whatever he wants.

Sounds dysfunctional to me. Marvin didn't want him but that didn't matter but he has the power not to play him. Sure Brown over rules everyone when it comes to drafting players and maybe Duke does too. So if Marvin has total control on who plays and who doesn't shouldn't that be enough reason to get rid of him with this aweful product he's been trotting out there every week.

(12-16-2017, 11:42 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Not really, this is gym shorts football. I've seen Ross on the field when it counts twice, he fumbled once, and stopped in the middle of his go route the second time. This video shows me he has potential, but his play when it counts says he sucks.....

Yeah, two plays define a career.  SMH.

(12-17-2017, 08:32 AM)McC Wrote: Yeah, two plays define a career.  SMH.

Agreed, kills me people give Ross grief on that fumble ! Perfectly timed, perfectly placed hit that would have been a fumble for anybody 99% of the time.

(12-17-2017, 08:32 AM)McC Wrote: Yeah, two plays define a career.  SMH.

To this point for Jon Ross it does. I don't think I've seen many in this thread say the kid will not be good; most are saying he, not some nefarious Marvin plot, is the reason he's not playing this year. And him sharing team practice film of him in sweats and shirt and suggesting he's been wronged does not dispute this fact.  

(12-17-2017, 09:32 AM)bfine32 Wrote: To this point for Jon Ross it does. I don't think I've seen many in this thread say the kid will not be good; most are saying he, not some nefarious Marvin plot, is the reason he's not playing this year. And him sharing team practice film of him in sweats and shirt and suggesting he's been wronged does not dispute this fact.  

Bullshit on that.  There are plenty, and not just in this thread.

Any coach with half a brain would have been doing anything and everything to help his disgustingly inept offense find a way to generate points.  But not Marvin, who has less than half a brain.   He should be fired for sabotage alone.

Good riddance to his sorry ass.  Any good he ever did was long ago buried under a mountain of embarrassingly bad decisions, humiliating team meltdowns, sorry lacks of discipline, constantly repeated mistakes and shortcomings. 

The reputation the Bengals have is his doing.  A lot ineptitude comes from above him in the organization.  What does he do with it?  He amplifies it, multiplies it, puts his own inept spin on it all.  He is a worthless fool who deserves to leave with his tail between his legs.

What is his legacy?   No coach has ever been as good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.  He's a bad joke on us all.

(12-17-2017, 09:32 AM)bfine32 Wrote: To this point for Jon Ross it does. I don't think I've seen many in this thread say the kid will not be good; most are saying he, not some nefarious Marvin plot, is the reason he's not playing this year. And him sharing team practice film of him in sweats and shirt and suggesting he's been wronged does not dispute this fact.  

What if it's a little of both? Why does everything have to be so black and white? What if Ross has some potential, and has been slow to learn...BUT...Marv also didn't like the pick and is letting it influence his hand by being harder on the kid than he otherwise would be? 

It doesn't take some grand conspiracy theory to believe a coach has favorites...and guys in his doghouse for whatever reason. 

As for Ross sharing this video proving the opposite of what he intended, that's a serious reach. You ever read any scouting reports that said this kid was difficult to coach? Usually stuff like that will get leaked by frustrated coaches, and we saw no such thing.

What exactly was the point of his posting the video?

The video is a handful of plays from practice week 13, for which he was a healthy scratch for the game. Week 14 he missed the first two days of practice with what is said to be and unknown shoulder injury before going on IR.

Is he attempting to say he should have been active week 13 because of being successful in the 4 or 5 practice plays he showed? Or was he attempting to silence those saying he can't play? To refute that he has an injury? I certainly hope it is not the latter, as it isn't video showing what he can do AFTER going on IR.

Also, I'd love to know how much time is between each of the reps in the video. Ross himself admitted he was out of shape at one point, that he could hit the 4.2 but not be able to run fast again for awhile. That, more than anything else, seems to be why Marvin would be upset with the kid (although I personally think it is difficult to do cardio work recovering from injuries to joint muscles).

(12-17-2017, 10:15 AM)McC Wrote: Bullshit on that.  There are plenty, and not just in this thread.

Any coach with half a brain would have been doing anything and everything to help his disgustingly inept offense find a way to generate points.  But not Marvin, who has less than half a brain.   He should be fired for sabotage alone.

Responding to a disappointing season by putting players who weren't ready on the field for the hell of it is more of a Browns move than a Bengals one.

There is another potential part to this that people are overlooking; the classy Bengals fans. You know, the ones who threw trash on a players yard, made rude comments to that same players wife in the stands, booed that same player when reaching milestones, booed another player at a celebrity softball game, hung signs at training camp saying that player sucks, fans screamed you suck and threw their hats at that same player after the Ravens loss this year. I'll stop there. Those these examples revolve around 2 players, has anyone seen the shit that our classy Bengals fans post on social media?

Who knows, maybe Ross is tired of being told he was a wasted pick and a bust. Maybe he got tired of being told he was too dumb and didn't have talent. While I feel him leaking this is more of a shot at the team, lets not ignore that it could have been in response to our top notch fan base. The same fan base who has wished death on Maualuga, Dalton, and others on social media. Hell, the same fan base that we have seen posts on these forums of people wishing career ending injuries for players.

(12-17-2017, 12:01 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: What if it's a little of both? Why does everything have to be so black and white? What if Ross has some potential, and has been slow to learn...BUT...Marv also didn't like the pick and is letting it influence his hand by being harder on the kid than he otherwise would be? 

It doesn't take some grand conspiracy theory to believe a coach has favorites...and guys in his doghouse for whatever reason. 

As for Ross sharing this video proving the opposite of what he intended, that's a serious reach. You ever read any scouting reports that said this kid was difficult to coach? Usually stuff like that will get leaked by frustrated coaches, and we saw no such thing.

He hasn't made it one year in the NFL without showing discontent. Ross most likely has the same mentality that many of this board have: "I know more about NFL football than Marvin Lewis". But to their credit they've endured a few years of frustration to reach that point. JR has done it in about 11 games.

I don't need a High School or College coach to tell me he's difficult to coach; he shows his immaturity with no one else's input.

(12-15-2017, 12:33 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: All the clips are just catching passes. Earlier in the year Marv was criticizing Ross on his blocking ability. If he was hiding a shoulder injury, that would make blocking pretty difficult, just ask Boling last year. Marv has always said the WR on this team have to be committed to run blocking if they want to play.

Lafell has been one of the worst blocking WRs of the year. You could literally just not try and have similar success. Should be about WR skill at that point 

(12-17-2017, 12:53 PM)muskiesfan Wrote: There is another potential part to this that people are overlooking; the classy Bengals fans. You know, the ones who threw trash on a players yard, made rude comments to that same players wife in the stands, booed that same player when reaching milestones, booed another player at a celebrity softball game, hung signs at training camp saying that player sucks, fans screamed you suck and threw their hats at that same player after the Ravens loss this year. I'll stop there. Those these examples revolve around 2 players, has anyone seen the shit that our classy Bengals fans post on social media?

Who knows, maybe Ross is tired of being told he was a wasted pick and a bust. Maybe he got tired of being told he was too dumb and didn't have talent. While I feel him leaking this is more of a shot at the team, lets not ignore that it could have been in response to our top notch fan base. The same fan base who has wished death on Maualuga, Dalton, and others on social media. Hell, the same fan base that we have seen posts on these forums of people wishing career ending injuries for players.

You might be onto something here.
It does give a sense he was trying to tell SOMEONE that he has talent. It may have been a message intended for the Bengals or it may have been for those fans harassing him for “being a bust.”
I just hope he gets an opportunity next year. With this team’s philosophy of draft and develop, there’s no room for error when it comes to selecting good players.


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