A lot of speculation in this thread. Ross only posted his catches, nothing else. I don't recall hearing anything from the other players, which I believe we would have if Marv was being unfair.

As far as Tobin goes, he lost me with the Ogbuehi pick and subsequent claims (3 years later) that Ogbuehi has the skills for the position.

(12-18-2017, 11:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Unlike Lovie Smith and Jeff Fisher, Marvin has never won a playoff game. At least Lovie and Jeff took their teams to the SB once while they stewed in their mediocrity.

Interesting that once the Bengals finish losing out (we all know they will) Marvin will finish 2 games over .500 for his career. The same number as Lovie Smith, just minus the 3 postseason wins and 1 AFC Championship.


Braylon Edwards abused a LOT of people that year. 80 catches, almost 1,300 yards (back when that was still a ton), 16 TDs. He was a 2nd Team All-Pro.

The Browns were actually 10-6 that year. That was the year Kellen Winslow was a Pro Bowler, too.

Yep. The one year they've been good since returning to Cleveland. It's crazy to think that they still didn't make the playoffs even with a 10-6 record.

(12-18-2017, 09:55 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Marv wanted Rueben Foster and when he didn't get him, he took his ball and went home like a *****.  Must have learned that from Palmer.  

Based on how many Bengals fans here have pledged to quit rooting for the Bengals and find another team if Mike keeps Marvin or makes a lazy HC hire, I'd say many people are taking a page from the book of Palmer now.

(12-19-2017, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep. The one year they've been good since returning to Cleveland. It's crazy to think that they still didn't make the playoffs even with a 10-6 record.

If I remember right, it was the Bengals who kept them out of the playoffs by beating them the last game of the season.

(12-19-2017, 12:17 PM)McC Wrote: If I remember right, it was the Bengals who kept them out of the playoffs by beating them the last game of the season.

Mostly right, except it was the second-to-last game of the season. Bengals won 19-14.
Back then there was no requirement for a divisional game in Week 17.
The Bengals played (and beat) Miami the last game of that season to finish 7-9.

Always said something was fishy and that we were owed a real explanation.

Still was the wrong pick even of he becomes great.

Which the jury is still out on.

Even though not a fan of pick at all because of bigger needs.

Still hope the kid becomes a star for Bengals.

Just becoming so frus rating watching 1st round pick after 1st round pick sit out the year.

(12-19-2017, 12:24 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Always said something was fishy and that we were owed a real explanation.

Still was the wrong pick even of he becomes great.

Which the jury is still out on.

Maybe I just hate John Ross (I sure don't love Marvin Lewis, so that can't be it) but I still don't see what is so damn fishy about this whole situation.  I think AJ Green has us spoiled into thinking that rookie WRs can just hit the ground running and all will be peachy keen unless something sinister is afoot.

(12-19-2017, 12:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I just hate John Ross (I sure don't love Marvin Lewis, so that can't be it) but I still don't see what is so damn fishy about this whole situation.  I think AJ Green has us spoiled into thinking that rookie WRs can just hit the ground running and all will be peachy keen unless something sinister is afoot.

Tyler Boyd had 54 catches as a rookie.  How did he do it?  Here's the really weird part---he played.

If Marvin was really against the Ross pick and instead wanted Foster as some rumors have claimed, here's how I picture the conversation going down with Brown, Tobin, and Lewis...

Lewis - "I'd like Reuben Foster. I think he'll be really good with Vontaze."
Tobin+Brown - "But we just signed Kevin Minter. How about John Ross?"
Lewis - "I don't see how he'd get playing time. After all, we just re-signed Brandon LaFell. He's the WR2."
Tobin+Brown - "But Ross is a good kid, no questionable character. He's also blazingly fast, runs good routes, and had elite production his final year at Washington."
Lewis - "Yes, but Brandon LaFell is signed for two years whereas Minter is only for one!"
Tobin+Brown - "We understand, but it's also better financially to draft receivers and pick up LBs in FA because good LBs are cheaper than good WRs."
Lewis - "Fine. But Ross is only going to get playing time if he's 100% healthy, doesn't mess up at all, and our starting WRs are hurt. If not all of that happens, he will redshirt and you will suffer!"

In all seriousness, let's say the Bengals did take Foster instead of Ross. MAYBE Foster would have played over Minter, but maybe not. Knowing this coaching staff, Foster would have ridden the pine over Burfict, Minter, Vigil, and Rey. So he would have likely been in the same boat John Ross was.

And this brings me to my next point...the 2018 draft.
If the Bengals really want a LB like Foster, I see a lot of similar traits in Foster that I see in Roquan Smith. Josey Jewell from Iowa has been stellar as well (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/josey-jewell-1.html). Malik Jefferson has been solid as well, but I think people expected him to do more than he did. There seem to be plenty of very good options for LB, as well as a couple in FA.
However, I don't see a WR like Ross in this upcoming draft. This draft looks to have a lot of big WRs. I think the closest WR to John Ross in the upcoming draft is Christian Kirk, but he's not quite as fast.

So my question would be would you rather have:
1) John Ross and get a new LB this offseason
or
2) Reuben Foster and get a new WR this offseason

I'm in favor of #1 because I think John Ross has a skill set that is both elite and unique that you won't really find in this coming offseason whereas Reuben Foster's skill set and elite traits might be easier to find.

(12-19-2017, 12:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If Marvin was really against the Ross pick and instead wanted Foster as some rumors have claimed, here's how I picture the conversation going down with Brown, Tobin, and Lewis...

Lewis - "I'd like Reuben Foster. I think he'll be really good with Vontaze."
Tobin+Brown - "But we just signed Kevin Minter. How about John Ross?"
Lewis - "I don't see how he'd get playing time. After all, we just re-signed Brandon LaFell. He's the WR2."
Tobin+Brown - "But Ross is a good kid, no questionable character. He's also blazingly fast, runs good routes, and had elite production his final year at Washington."
Lewis - "Yes, but Brandon LaFell is signed for two years whereas Minter is only for one!"
Tobin+Brown - "We understand, but it's also better financially to draft receivers and pick up LBs in FA because good LBs are cheaper than good WRs."
Lewis - "Fine. But Ross is only going to get playing time if he's 100% healthy, doesn't mess up at all, and our starting WRs are hurt. If not all of that happens, he will redshirt and you will suffer!"

In all seriousness, let's say the Bengals did take Foster instead of Ross. MAYBE Foster would have played over Minter, but maybe not. Knowing this coaching staff, Foster would have ridden the pine over Burfict, Minter, Vigil, and Rey. So he would have likely been in the same boat John Ross was.

And this brings me to my next point...the 2018 draft.
If the Bengals really want a LB like Foster, I see a lot of similar traits in Foster that I see in Roquan Smith. Josey Jewell from Iowa has been stellar as well (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/josey-jewell-1.html). Malik Jefferson has been solid as well, but I think people expected him to do more than he did. There seem to be plenty of very good options for LB, as well as a couple in FA.
However, I don't see a WR like Ross in this upcoming draft. This draft looks to have a lot of big WRs. I think the closest WR to John Ross in the upcoming draft is Christian Kirk, but he's not quite as fast.

So my question would be would you rather have:
1) John Ross and get a new LB this offseason
or
2) Reuben Foster and get a new WR this offseason

I'm in favor of #1 because I think John Ross has a skill set that is both elite and unique that you won't really find in this coming offseason whereas Reuben Foster's skill set and elite traits might be easier to find.

Excellent points!. My only point of contention with your post is this, I'm tired of getting "solid" LBers. For once in my existent Bengals Fandom, I would love to see a elite MLB! I think we were close with Thurman, but we all know were that went.... 

(12-19-2017, 01:11 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Excellent points!. My only point of contention with your post is this, I'm tired of getting "solid" LBers. For once in my existent Bengals Fandom, I would love to see a elite MLB! I think we were close with Thurman, but we all know were that went.... 

The reason I didn't say "elite" is because someone could have elite traits and still not pan out. I consider Smith, Jewell, and Jefferson to have elite traits at least in some areas.
When it comes to very good LBs in FA that maybe don't have "elite" traits but have produced very well for multiple years in the NFL and still in their prime, I think primarily of Preston Brown and Zach Brown.

EDIT - For example, I think many considered Paul Dawson to have some elite traits like play recognition and instincts, but he hasn't done a damn thing because of his attitude (supposedly).
EDIT #2 - On the flip side, look at JuJu Smith-Schuster when it comes to WR. He didn't really have any "elite" skill set but did come with proven production at USC and had many very good qualities. And he's showing he can succeed rather well in the NFL. For me, I'd rather get a solid, very good player in each round of the draft that may never be an all-pro rather than going for a guy who is much more potential with elite traits that has a lower floor. Whiffing on early-round picks is what can doom a franchise like the Bengals.

(12-19-2017, 01:12 PM)ochocincos Wrote: The reason I didn't say "elite" is because someone could have elite traits and still not pan out. I consider Smith, Jewell, and Jefferson to have elite traits at least in some areas.
When it comes to very good LBs in FA that maybe don't have "elite" traits but have produced very well for multiple years in the NFL and still in their prime, I think primarily of Preston Brown and Zach Brown.

I would like a beast at run stopping TBH. I'm going to throw out a name of MLB that I watched all season, Vanderesh from Boise St. He's only a junior, maybe he declares early.
You right though, a lot of don't pan out for one reason or another.

(12-19-2017, 12:06 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Yep. The one year they've been good since returning to Cleveland. It's crazy to think that they still didn't make the playoffs even with a 10-6 record.

They did make the playoffs in 2002, and that wound up being one heck of a playoff game vs the Steelers. The Browns thoroughly dominated and had leads of 24-7 (late 3rd quarter) and 33-21 (5 minutes left in 4th), yet somehow wound up losing. As you can imagine, the flags were flying fast and furious on the Browns during the comeback effort. 

On one late TD drive, 3 penalties for called in the span of 4 plays. This netted the Steelers 30 yards and negated a sack. Overall, the Browns were flagged 5 more times for 40 more yards. The Browns deserved to win. Kelly Holcomb (429 yards, 3 TDs) had the game of his life. Daylon McCutcheon had 2 INTs. 

(12-19-2017, 12:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I just hate John Ross (I sure don't love Marvin Lewis, so that can't be it) but I still don't see what is so damn fishy about this whole situation.  I think AJ Green has us spoiled into thinking that rookie WRs can just hit the ground running and all will be peachy keen unless something sinister is afoot.

I don't think anyone was expecting Ross to be the unquestioned starter and rip off a 1000 yard season.

I guess I was just expecting Marvin to try and get the 9th overall pick on the field for a bit more snaps than 17 (out of 775).

(12-19-2017, 12:28 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Maybe I just hate John Ross (I sure don't love Marvin Lewis, so that can't be it) but I still don't see what is so damn fishy about this whole situation.  I think AJ Green has us spoiled into thinking that rookie WRs can just hit the ground running and all will be peachy keen unless something sinister is afoot.

2014 was an especially great year for WRs. Watkins, Evans, OBJ, Benjamin, Cooks, Adams, Landry, Allen Robinson, and Matthews have all had some really good seasons in the few years they've been in the league.
I think people primarily point to that year and think that if that many WRs can be drafted in the first two rounds and produce like they have, a Top 10 pick WR should be able to do the same.

But not every draft class is equal.
Look at the 2015 draft. Kevin White was 7th overall. He's only been healthy enough to play in five games, 196 yards in his three-year career. DeVante Parker was 14th overall and has put up about the same level of production as Marqise Lee has, yet Marqise Lee was a 2nd round pick the year prior.
Look at the 2016 draft. Will Fuller put up just 635 yards in 14 games as a rookie. Josh Doctson was out most of his rookie year and has looked good in spurts this year but still only has put up 404 yards in 14 games this year. Coleman only put up 413 yards last year in 10 games. Treadwell has been a disaster.
And now look at the 2017 draft. Corey Davis was 5th overall (!) and has only put up 284 yards in 9 games played. Mike Williams was drafted 7th overall (!) and has only put up 87 yards in 8 games played. All of Davis, Williams, and Ross have been plagued by injuries this year.

(12-19-2017, 12:38 PM)McC Wrote: Tyler Boyd had 54 catches as a rookie.  How did he do it?  Here's the really weird part---he played.

Nonsense, Marvin Lewis would never give a rookie WR a chance to play.  Are you sure?

(12-18-2017, 09:24 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We can agree to disagree on this one.  For John Ross' sake and the sake if our team I sincerely hope he decides to play it safe and work harder next year. 

We absolutely need a healthy Ross next year, agreed.  I scouted that guy closely and I couldn't wait to get him on the field.  He made guys like Adoree Jackson look stupid. It is like trying to tackle a fart.  When he is 100%, he will be our most explosive weapon on the field.  

(12-19-2017, 12:13 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Based on how many Bengals fans here have pledged to quit rooting for the Bengals and find another team if Mike keeps Marvin or makes a lazy HC hire, I'd say many people are taking a page from the book of Palmer now.

I think those are apples and oranges...one got paid over a hundred million, the rest just do it out of love and loyalty.  I am letting my season tickets go, but it is more (sadly) out of the fact that my Father is having knee problems and he didn't attend the last four games.   The experience isn't so great now that there aren't blackouts and the point was it was time we spent together.

I will never stop rooting for the Bengals.  They are my team, through and through.  I am optimistic that a good hire might have the same impact of the Rams, Bills, and Falcons.  Then again, Lucy will probably just pull the ball away and I will go flying through the air.  

Regardless, I love the NFL draft and if all goes well this year, I will be able to watch from Vegas!  My buddy and I that view all the coaches cuts from our games and scout teams where we have relationships are going to move the draft party to Vegas!  (Don't tell my wife  )

(12-18-2017, 11:10 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Braylon Edwards abused a LOT of people that year. 80 catches, almost 1,300 yards (back when that was still a ton), 16 TDs. He was a 2nd Team All-Pro.

The Browns were actually 10-6 that year. That was the year Kellen Winslow was a Pro Bowler, too.

Doesn't change the fact that Hall was toast most of his rookie season and then came on very strong.  My point, again, being that he improved from playing, not sitting.  

I think it is borderline amazing what Dennard is doing after almost no playing time over the start of his career.  His had more to do with injury...that, and Marv trotting out Adam Jones despite sucking up the joint.  I would send a message to Dre as well by playing Dennard and WJIII over him until he starts playing consistently like he (rarely) flashes. 

(12-19-2017, 12:38 PM)McC Wrote: Tyler Boyd had 54 catches as a rookie.  How did he do it?  Here's the really weird part---he played.

Bingo!  We have a winner!