(12-19-2017, 12:52 PM)ochocincos Wrote: If Marvin was really against the Ross pick and instead wanted Foster as some rumors have claimed, here's how I picture the conversation going down with Brown, Tobin, and Lewis...

Lewis - "I'd like Reuben Foster. I think he'll be really good with Vontaze."
Tobin+Brown - "But we just signed Kevin Minter. How about John Ross?"
Lewis - "I don't see how he'd get playing time. After all, we just re-signed Brandon LaFell. He's the WR2."
Tobin+Brown - "But Ross is a good kid, no questionable character. He's also blazingly fast, runs good routes, and had elite production his final year at Washington."
Lewis - "Yes, but Brandon LaFell is signed for two years whereas Minter is only for one!"
Tobin+Brown - "We understand, but it's also better financially to draft receivers and pick up LBs in FA because good LBs are cheaper than good WRs."
Lewis - "Fine. But Ross is only going to get playing time if he's 100% healthy, doesn't mess up at all, and our starting WRs are hurt. If not all of that happens, he will redshirt and you will suffer!"

In all seriousness, let's say the Bengals did take Foster instead of Ross. MAYBE Foster would have played over Minter, but maybe not. Knowing this coaching staff, Foster would have ridden the pine over Burfict, Minter, Vigil, and Rey. So he would have likely been in the same boat John Ross was.

And this brings me to my next point...the 2018 draft.
If the Bengals really want a LB like Foster, I see a lot of similar traits in Foster that I see in Roquan Smith. Josey Jewell from Iowa has been stellar as well (https://www.sports-reference.com/cfb/players/josey-jewell-1.html). Malik Jefferson has been solid as well, but I think people expected him to do more than he did. There seem to be plenty of very good options for LB, as well as a couple in FA.
However, I don't see a WR like Ross in this upcoming draft. This draft looks to have a lot of big WRs. I think the closest WR to John Ross in the upcoming draft is Christian Kirk, but he's not quite as fast.

So my question would be would you rather have:
1) John Ross and get a new LB this offseason
or
2) Reuben Foster and get a new WR this offseason

I'm in favor of #1 because I think John Ross has a skill set that is both elite and unique that you won't really find in this coming offseason whereas Reuben Foster's skill set and elite traits might be easier to find.

Good post...

I choose Ross and a new LB this season.  The jury was still out on Vigil, and although a lot of folks seem to have given up on him, there was a brief period of time when they had a healthy DT and Burfict that Vigil was starting to flash the speed that got him drafted.  

Jordan Evans looked absolutely lost this past week.  

I think they need to start preparing for life without Burfict.  The NFL has made it clear that it is OK to assbag him, but if he farts in someone's general direction, he is missing games.  

The Bengals need big help at LB, safety (please, get rid of Williams...horrible at everything you need a safety to do), and DT.  

I would focus on the defense, as I (the minority here) think they actually have good pieces on offense, but they need a more creative and aggressive scheme.  They sure could use help at RG, and I hope Redmond shows something Sunday because he is almost guaranteed to play.  

(12-15-2017, 09:41 AM)thillan Wrote: I'd be frustrated too. This kid is talented, and can be a great complement to Green.

wasted 1st round draft pick..we needed healthy offensive linemen

Nuts to I'm on board. Play Ross, I don't care how injured he is. Put Ross and AJ on the field next year and ride it out, win or lose. No more Marvin and no more Lafell. Make it impossible to not play the kid.

(12-19-2017, 07:12 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Doesn't change the fact that Hall was toast most of his rookie season and then came on very strong.  My point, again, being that he improved from playing, not sitting.  

I think it is borderline amazing what Dennard is doing after almost no playing time over the start of his career.  His had more to do with injury...that, and Marv trotting out Adam Jones despite sucking up the joint.  I would send a message to Dre as well by playing Dennard and WJIII over him until he starts playing consistently like he (rarely) flashes. 

Perhaps so on Hall.

Dennard playing more earlier in his career wouldn't do much for his deficiencies. The guy has stone hands and zero ball instincts. He's very much a catch-then-tackle CB. CBs aren't supposed to lead your team in solo-tackles. That's not a good sign.

Dennard after 4 years: 10 Pdef, 2 INT, 0 FF
Hall after 1 year: 12 Pdef, 5 INT, 1 FF
Hall after 4 years: 71 Pdef, 18 INT, 5 FF

I've said this before and I will say it again, Dennard looks like guy who would benefit putting on like 5-10lbs of muscle and playing SS. He just has zero instinct or hands at CB.

(12-19-2017, 07:58 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Nuts to  I'm on board. Play Ross, I don't care how injured he is.  Put Ross and AJ on the field next year and ride it out, win or lose. No more Marvin and no more Lafell. Make it impossible to not play the kid.

without an offensive line..neither one will do any good.

(12-19-2017, 08:55 PM)cooper Wrote: without an offensive line..neither one will do any good.

Contrary to popular belief, the O-line has actually improved in the latter portion of the season.

I'm not saying they are good, but it has looked more workable.

(12-19-2017, 08:50 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Perhaps so on Hall.

Dennard playing more earlier in his career wouldn't do much for his deficiencies. The guy has stone hands and zero ball instincts. He's very much a catch-then-tackle CB. CBs aren't supposed to lead your team in solo-tackles. That's not a good sign.

Dennard after 4 years: 10 Pdef, 2 INT, 0 FF
Hall after 1 year: 12 Pdef, 5 INT, 1 FF
Hall after 4 years: 71 Pdef, 18 INT, 5 FF

I've said this before and I will say it again, Dennard looks like guy who would benefit putting on like 5-10lbs of muscle and playing SS. He just has zero instinct or hands at CB.

Those are interesting stats, but they don't really compare apples to apples unless they had the same amount of playing time in those years.  I would think Dennard would equal Hall's one year with his four, but he really hadn't had much of any opportunity until this year.

CB stats are also misleading in this sense:  Unless you can break down targets, you might miss the guy that is so solid in coverage that he is rarely targeted by the opposing QB.  I was surprised to see you say Hall had 5 INTs that first year, but I know they targeted the shit out of him.  

I disagree that Dennard has zero instincts or hands as well.  I haven't seen too many opportunities where he dropped easy INTs, and as I mentioned earlier if you are the opposing QB and you have Dennard or Adam Jones and Dre Kirkpatrick, you aren't looking at Dennard as much as the other two.  Dennard also played a lot more at slot corner, which is a bit of a different animal as far as INT opportunities as well.  

(12-20-2017, 09:50 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Those are interesting stats, but they don't really compare apples to apples unless they had the same amount of playing time in those years.  I would think Dennard would equal Hall's one year with his four, but he really hadn't had much of any opportunity until this year.

CB stats are also misleading in this sense:  Unless you can break down targets, you might miss the guy that is so solid in coverage that he is rarely targeted by the opposing QB.  I was surprised to see you say Hall had 5 INTs that first year, but I know they targeted the shit out of him.  

I disagree that Dennard has zero instincts or hands as well.  I haven't seen too many opportunities where he dropped easy INTs, and as I mentioned earlier if you are the opposing QB and you have Dennard or Adam Jones and Dre Kirkpatrick, you aren't looking at Dennard as much as the other two.  Dennard also played a lot more at slot corner, which is a bit of a different animal as far as INT opportunities as well.  

Agreed they don't compare equally, but Dennard has played well over a years worth of snaps, so the Dennard 4 vs Hall 1 actually favors Dennard in playing time in that one. Dennard has played something like 135% of a single season's snaps in his career. Plus while playing helps you learn, having 2-3 years to learn also should theoretically help you. Sitting and learning worked for Palmer, it worked for Rodgers, etc.

- - - - - - -

I'll admit I don't have targets and such, but I did add a stat that pointed out that he wasn't so solid in coverage that he is rarely targeted. He is leading the team in solo tackles this year. You can't tackle people unless they have the ball near you.

Even in '16, when he played a little over 30% of the defensive snaps, he had 32 solo tackles. That's roughly 100 solo tackles if he played 100%. CBs should simply never be needed to tackle that often, and that works out over his career, too. I said he's played roughly 135% of a full season's worth of defensive snaps earlier in my post. Well he has 160 tackles (114 solo) in that 135%. People are targeting him plenty.

For the previous 4 years of 16 games started each year ('13-'16) Richard Sherman is averaging 38.5 solo tackles. The year after Revis became an island with his 31 Pdef/6 INT in '09, and people stopped throwing at him? 26 solo tackles (in 13 games).

- - - - - - - -

Combine all those tackles (thus opportunity) he's had with the fact that he's playing the whole year this year and he has 5 Pdef, and he has no instincts for the ball.

(12-19-2017, 07:21 PM)cooper Wrote: wasted 1st round draft pick..we needed good offensive linemen

Fixed it.

(12-19-2017, 09:28 PM)GreenCornBengal Wrote: Contrary to popular belief, the O-line has actually improved in the latter portion of the season.

I'm not saying they are good, but it has looked more workable.

No, that is definitely popular belief. I can't think of a single post where someone said the oline has not improved as the season went on.

And no. They are NOT even workable. They are still terrible. The only people who think they are workable are the ones who hate spending mike browns money,  want to spend every draft pick on defense, or just have no clue how a good offense operates. In a perfect world we would replace the entire oline with maybe the exception of boling.

The bengals however will most likely have exact same line next year because.... well... Mike brown.

(12-15-2017, 01:08 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Agreed. Why bench a WR that can’t block, when you won’t bench an Olineman that can’t block.

Truth

Who is this Tyler Boyd guy?

All I can add is this: his practices were not the best early (perhaps because his leg wasn't totally healthy from preseason) and improved later. Everyone admitted that. Apparently the shoulder was bothering him for a long time (no one will say when, because only Ross knows and he wouldn't tell me) and at that moment, he decided to get it checked on and they determined this season-ending move was necessary. I don't really question guys deciding to make sure their body is right. It's the only way they make a living.

As for him posting practice video: not sure what that's about, or why, but safe to say the team wouldn't like it. It's something I'll ask him about at the next opportunity.

But, it does come across as Ross trying to show people he was winning in practice at times - though everyone, including Ross, admitted the totality of his practices weren't super consistent all year long.

(12-21-2017, 12:17 AM)jowczarski Wrote: All I can add is this: his practices were not the best early (perhaps because his leg wasn't totally healthy from preseason) and improved later. Everyone admitted that. Apparently the shoulder was bothering him for a long time (no one will say when, because only Ross knows and he wouldn't tell me) and at that moment, he decided to get it checked on and they determined this season-ending move was necessary. I don't really question guys deciding to make sure their body is right. It's the only way they make a living.

As for him posting practice video: not sure what that's about, or why, but safe to say the team wouldn't like it. It's something I'll ask him about at the next opportunity.

But, it does come across as Ross trying to show people he was winning in practice at times - though everyone, including Ross, admitted the totality of his practices weren't super consistent all year long.

In your own personal opinion, do you think Ross could've or should've seen the field more? With his health and practice performance in mind? Is it possible Marv was being just a *little* hard on him for some reason?

(12-15-2017, 01:08 PM)Yojimbo Wrote: Agreed. Why bench a WR that can’t block, when you won’t bench an Olineman that can’t block.

Post of the year lmao +rep

(12-20-2017, 10:34 PM)Utts Wrote: Who is this Tyler Boyd guy?

Future Steeler?

(12-19-2017, 07:21 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: Good post...

I choose Ross and a new LB this season.  The jury was still out on Vigil, and although a lot of folks seem to have given up on him, there was a brief period of time when they had a healthy DT and Burfict that Vigil was starting to flash the speed that got him drafted.  

Jordan Evans looked absolutely lost this past week.  

I think they need to start preparing for life without Burfict.  The NFL has made it clear that it is OK to assbag him, but if he farts in someone's general direction, he is missing games.  

The Bengals need big help at LB, safety (please, get rid of Williams...horrible at everything you need a safety to do), and DT.  

I would focus on the defense, as I (the minority here) think they actually have good pieces on offense, but they need a more creative and aggressive scheme.  They sure could use help at RG, and I hope Redmond shows something Sunday because he is almost guaranteed to play.  

Me too, people keep wanting burfict to payback juju and every time I think why so they can take Burfict away from us?

(12-21-2017, 09:26 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Me too, people keep wanting burfict to payback juju and every time I think why so they can take Burfict away from us?

We need someone else to step up if they want payback on juju. If Burfict sneezes and doesn't cover his nose, it's 8 games.

(12-21-2017, 12:17 AM)jowczarski Wrote: All I can add is this: his practices were not the best early (perhaps because his leg wasn't totally healthy from preseason) and improved later. Everyone admitted that. Apparently the shoulder was bothering him for a long time (no one will say when, because only Ross knows and he wouldn't tell me) and at that moment, he decided to get it checked on and they determined this season-ending move was necessary. I don't really question guys deciding to make sure their body is right. It's the only way they make a living.

As for him posting practice video: not sure what that's about, or why, but safe to say the team wouldn't like it. It's something I'll ask him about at the next opportunity.

But, it does come across as Ross trying to show people he was winning in practice at times - though everyone, including Ross, admitted the totality of his practices weren't super consistent all year long.

Thanks for this Jim O. :andy:

I am just speaking of my own opinion but it was actually nice to see something of our 1st round pick this season lol

I know it probably wasn't the right thing to do by him, but we weren't going to get any info from Marv about him.

Sure looked pretty obvious to me that Marv lost this team after the last Steelers game.

Just watch us get our asses kicked by the Lions next. Marv's teams used to win these types of games when it didn't matter.

(12-21-2017, 09:26 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Me too, people keep wanting burfict to payback juju and every time I think why so they can take Burfict away from us?

Do what the steelers would do:  Send a scrub LB out there (Nickerson) and let him do the retaliation.  Then, when Dalton and Green hookup for a long TD pass, they could re-enact the revenge shot on JuJu.