(01-10-2018, 05:04 PM)ElderStatesman Wrote: No dalton. I get that it’s hard for you to digest multiple topics

But the thread is about Kitna.  You could easily do your whine and cry act about Dalton in the Dalton thread.  Apparently, it's hard for you to even digest one.

Tick, tick, tick.

(01-10-2018, 05:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: And at the same time you demonstrated how to make a post calling all Dalton fans delusional without any facts at all to back up the claim.

And here I was actually trying to post facts to show how inaccurate a stat QBR is.  I almost forgot how things work around here.

Welcome back.  It hasn't been nearly as Fred around here without you.

(01-10-2018, 10:09 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I like Kitna also..seems to have a true love of the game... would be a good addition to the staff, not just on a QB level but a team level also. 

...and I think Andy would be the perfect QB for him to cut his teeth on. Andy is a polished QB that has gotten the most out of his athletic skills, so he could probably teach as much as he could learn in that department. 

(01-10-2018, 03:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  They made it up and they are the only ones who knows what it even means.

Yeah I remember when Trent Dilfer unveiled this steaming pile of crap. It always seemed to me it could be made to favor whoever ESPN thought was the popular QB at that time.

(01-10-2018, 03:55 PM)Wyche Wrote: Well, I get that, but some good QBs have played for some very bad teams, and put up good numbers despite it.  I like to look at YPC, YPA, Comp. %, TD-INT ratio, rushing numbers, and rating as to how good a QB is.  I just don't put much stock in QBR.  Seems like a last gasp effort for ESPN NFL coverage to remain relevant to me.

EVERY QB rating metric will be flawed.  There is simply no way to take in to account things like AJ Green dropping 7 balls, the offensive line sucking ass, a horrible offensive coordinator, etc.  The metric is supposed to give folks a way of comparing QBs to each other and have endless debates (like this one started as a QB coach thread).

Dalton, for whatever reason, gets little to no respect from the league.  But having watched him play for a fairly long time now, in person, I can tell you that he is every bit as capable of winning a Super Bowl as QBs like Manning, Piggy, Prescott, etc. but he is a tier below (IMHO) the Brady, Brees, and Rogers of the league. 

I was so happy with the drafting of Ross.  Having a vertical (that is NOT all he does) threat opposite AJ Green should have paid huge dividends.  Hell, look at the second contracts of Sanu and Jones.  But, in typical Bengal fashion, it has become a pissing match with the HC for playing time and now I can't help but think the kid is doomed for taking it to social media.  I saw such potential with him and Core opposite Green.  Green getting a few snaps off for Malone.  Boyd and Lafell in rotation in the slot.  Alas, none of it happened and Dalton was saddled with a big fat ZERO in terms of WRs that generate immediate separation.  None.  That is a death sentence in a quick-hit, timing offense.  

When Dalton has had even average WR talent around him, he has been at or near the top of the league in most categories.  I hope they further develop Kroft and Uzomah at TE, Core, Malone, and Ross at WR, and Boyd for the slot and Lafell needs to find work elsewhere.  The rushing attack COULD be better if they don't fall back in to the "Well, Hopkins isn't that bad, Ced isn't that bad" trap.  They need Westerman pushing Bodine, Redmond at RG, and new tackles on both sides.  

Do this, and Dalton will shine.  Don't do this, and they will be grinding out another 5-7 win season.  

(01-11-2018, 09:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: EVERY QB rating metric will be flawed.  There is simply no way to take in to account things like AJ Green dropping 7 balls, the offensive line sucking ass, a horrible offensive coordinator, etc.  The metric is supposed to give folks a way of comparing QBs to each other and have endless debates (like this one started as a QB coach thread).

Dalton, for whatever reason, gets little to no respect from the league.  But having watched him play for a fairly long time now, in person, I can tell you that he is every bit as capable of winning a Super Bowl as QBs like Manning, Piggy, Prescott, etc. but he is a tier below (IMHO) the Brady, Brees, and Rogers of the league. 

I was so happy with the drafting of Ross.  Having a vertical (that is NOT all he does) threat opposite AJ Green should have paid huge dividends.  Hell, look at the second contracts of Sanu and Jones.  But, in typical Bengal fashion, it has become a pissing match with the HC for playing time and now I can't help but think the kid is doomed for taking it to social media.  I saw such potential with him and Core opposite Green.  Green getting a few snaps off for Malone.  Boyd and Lafell in rotation in the slot.  Alas, none of it happened and Dalton was saddled with a big fat ZERO in terms of WRs that generate immediate separation.  None.  That is a death sentence in a quick-hit, timing offense.  

When Dalton has had even average WR talent around him, he has been at or near the top of the league in most categories.  I hope they further develop Kroft and Uzomah at TE, Core, Malone, and Ross at WR, and Boyd for the slot and Lafell needs to find work elsewhere.  The rushing attack COULD be better if they don't fall back in to the "Well, Hopkins isn't that bad, Ced isn't that bad" trap.  They need Westerman pushing Bodine, Redmond at RG, and new tackles on both sides.  

Do this, and Dalton will shine.  Don't do this, and they will be grinding out another 5-7 win season.  

Maybe because they have an unbiased opinion on him? And he’s usually been awful in prime time and the playoffs where people who don’t regularly watch him
get to see Bad Andy on full display...

(01-11-2018, 09:53 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Maybe because they have an unbiased opinion on him? And he’s usually been awful in prime time and the playoffs where people who don’t regularly watch him
get to see Bad Andy on full display...

Right.  Because Andy played defense against SD and couldn't stop the run.  He also fumbled away the game at the 5 yard line (Gio).  I will acknowledge that Dalton didn't play well in his first playoff game as the whole team looked overwhelmed against the Texans, but the second game (Gresham 6 drops...and don't bother with the stat sheet, I still have the game tape), the third game (SD, he did have two picks, but 332 yards and defense couldn't stop shit), the fourth game (Colts, Bengals fielded a MASH unit...) and fifth game (McCarron played), I don't put the blame on Dalton.

The narrative about prime time games and the playoffs are consistent with one man, and his name isn't Andy (Marv).

(01-10-2018, 04:04 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Damn sure should, QBR is a joke.

TD's to ints, yards per attempt are much more important at the end of the day.

Yardage can also be a bit deceiving as QB's trying to catch up throw the ball more. They are desperate.

But then again Tom Brady leads the league in yardage so...

Coaching again.  Brady has been quoted that they never look at the scoreboard.  They try to score every time they get the ball.  Every time.  Sounds overly simple, but that is in stark contrast to Marv who will start playing kill the clock with pointless rush attempts up the gut in the second quarter.  I almost root to NOT get ahead by too much (see steeler game this year) early, because he will just conservative the game away...

(01-11-2018, 09:58 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Right.  Because Andy played defense against SD and couldn't stop the run.  He also fumbled away the game at the 5 yard line (Gio).  I will acknowledge that Dalton didn't play well in his first playoff game as the whole team looked overwhelmed against the Texans, but the second game (Gresham 6 drops...and don't bother with the stat sheet, I still have the game tape), the third game (SD, he did have two picks, but 332 yards and defense couldn't stop shit), the fourth game (Colts, Bengals fielded a MASH unit...) and fifth game (McCarron played), I don't put the blame on Dalton.

The narrative about prime time games and the playoffs are consistent with one man, and his name isn't Andy (Marv).

Well he did fumble (untouched) as well.  But overall I'm fine with Andy.

As for Kitna, I don't know if he'd be good or not, but you know for damned sure he would give it his all.  Dude got every bit out of the talent he was born with.

(01-10-2018, 04:21 PM)ElderStatesman Wrote: His second half passer rating was 73.  His 4th quarter rating was 76

Yeah. Despite his fluke pass vs Baltimore too

Fluke?  Was it a fluke that AJ dropped 7 passes?  

Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh....

(01-10-2018, 05:04 PM)ElderStatesman Wrote: No dalton. I get that it’s hard for you to digest multiple topics

Whoooosh, Whoooooosh, Whoooooooosh.....(It always gets louder when it gets closer)

(01-11-2018, 09:46 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: EVERY QB rating metric will be flawed.  There is simply no way to take in to account things like AJ Green dropping 7 balls, the offensive line sucking ass, a horrible offensive coordinator, etc.  The metric is supposed to give folks a way of comparing QBs to each other and have endless debates (like this one started as a QB coach thread).

Dalton, for whatever reason, gets little to no respect from the league.  But having watched him play for a fairly long time now, in person, I can tell you that he is every bit as capable of winning a Super Bowl as QBs like Manning, Piggy, Prescott, etc. but he is a tier below (IMHO) the Brady, Brees, and Rogers of the league. 

I was so happy with the drafting of Ross.  Having a vertical (that is NOT all he does) threat opposite AJ Green should have paid huge dividends.  Hell, look at the second contracts of Sanu and Jones.  But, in typical Bengal fashion, it has become a pissing match with the HC for playing time and now I can't help but think the kid is doomed for taking it to social media.  I saw such potential with him and Core opposite Green.  Green getting a few snaps off for Malone.  Boyd and Lafell in rotation in the slot.  Alas, none of it happened and Dalton was saddled with a big fat ZERO in terms of WRs that generate immediate separation.  None.  That is a death sentence in a quick-hit, timing offense.  

When Dalton has had even average WR talent around him, he has been at or near the top of the league in most categories.  I hope they further develop Kroft and Uzomah at TE, Core, Malone, and Ross at WR, and Boyd for the slot and Lafell needs to find work elsewhere.  The rushing attack COULD be better if they don't fall back in to the "Well, Hopkins isn't that bad, Ced isn't that bad" trap.  They need Westerman pushing Bodine, Redmond at RG, and new tackles on both sides.  

Do this, and Dalton will shine.  Don't do this, and they will be grinding out another 5-7 win season.  

Aside from work with a good QB coach, I think Lazor's view of the blocking schemes and the personnel needed (which we seem to have, albeit limited game action in which to judge) will help the run game quite a bit, and the protection.  These two things are more critical to his success than anything.  They MUST get his internal clock set back to zero.....like it was a couple years ago.

(01-11-2018, 10:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Fluke?  Was it a fluke that AJ dropped 7 passes?  

Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh....

AJ green dropped 4 passes in 17

Less than Julio and Kelece.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2017&week=100&category=RECEIVING&opp=0&sort=11&qualified=1&sortOrder=0

Lol

(01-11-2018, 10:49 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Aside from work with a good QB coach, I think Lazor's view of the blocking schemes and the personnel needed (which we seem to have, albeit limited game action in which to judge) will help the run game quite a bit, and the protection.  These two things are more critical to his success than anything.  They MUST get his internal clock set back to zero.....like it was a couple years ago.

Your eyes are like mine: You can spot a bad offensive line a light year away. The directional blocking works — when it’s used — in the run game but I want to see a modern pass protection scheme in place this season.

The modern pass protection scheme used by New England, Philadelphia, and the Rams* involves pushing ACROSS the line of scrimmage to make a YUGE pocket.





*Pittsburgh doesn’t pass protect. They hold and don’t get flagged.

(01-11-2018, 10:11 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Fluke?  Was it a fluke that AJ dropped 7 passes?  

Whoosh, whoosh, whoosh....

Not sure why you feel the need to keep exaggerating but it was 4. I’ve provided several links from multiple sites. Look it up.

(01-11-2018, 11:10 AM)ElderStatesman Wrote: AJ green dropped 4 passes in 17

Less than Julio and Kelece.

https://www.foxsports.com/nfl/stats?season=2017&week=100&category=RECEIVING&opp=0&sort=11&qualified=1&sortOrder=0

Lol

Only one more than Brown who’s widely considered the best WR in the game. But yeah AJ sucks...

(01-11-2018, 11:48 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Not sure why you feel the need to keep exaggerating but it was 4.  I’ve provided several links from multiple sites. Look it up.

Serious question, as I don't know the answer, do those include tipped balls for INTs?  A couple were un-AJ like misses, and a couple were iffy throws.

(01-11-2018, 11:53 AM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Serious question, as I don't know the answer, do those include tipped balls for INTs?  A couple were un-AJ like misses, and a couple were iffy throws.

“This standard says drops are "incomplete passes where the receiver SHOULD have caught the pass with ORDINARY effort."

"Only use this if the receiver is 100 percent at fault and no one else can be blamed for the incompletion," ESPN tells its game charters. "Pass interference that wasn't called/passes thrown just outside the receiver's reach, etc., are NOT drops."

A lot of Dalton’s throws are NOT “ordinary effort” imo. He’s always had a problem with putting the ball too high, even for the 6’4 AJ Green. But, yes there was a FEW this season that were on AJ.

(01-11-2018, 12:02 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: “This standard says drops are "incomplete passes where the receiver SHOULD have caught the pass with ORDINARY effort."

"Only use this if the receiver is 100 percent at fault and no one else can be blamed for the incompletion," ESPN tells its game charters. "Pass interference that wasn't called/passes thrown just outside the receiver's reach, etc., are NOT drops."

A lot of Dalton’s throws are NOT “ordinary effort” imo. He’s always had a problem with putting the ball too high, even for the 6’4 AJ Green. But, yes there was a FEW this season that were on AJ.

Gotcha, and I agree with always having that problem.  It seems as the pressure increases, he rushes things and throws high.

(01-11-2018, 10:05 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Coaching again.  Brady has been quoted that they never look at the scoreboard.  They try to score every time they get the ball.  Every time.  Sounds overly simple, but that is in stark contrast to Marv who will start playing kill the clock with pointless rush attempts up the gut in the second quarter.  I almost root to NOT get ahead by too much (see steeler game this year) early, because he will just conservative the game away...

Marvin wears me out by trying to sit on leads way too early. 

His biggest flaw in my book.