1-25 we are talking about the Bengals

Will be more than happy to eat crow if wrong on this though.

Who says that merely winning a playoff game = success? The goal, as with any sports team, is to win the Championship.

I'll bet you that if you interviewed any lifelong Cubs or Redsox fans (both teams were supposedly "cursed", until they weren't) and ask those fans if they were ever satisfied with winning the Wild Card, the Division, or even the Pennant, and if they considered those distinctions as being successful, I think that you would be surprised to learn otherwise.

As a kid and as a young man, I watched my team play for the championship and fail both times. I was crushed both times, I did not consider those seasons "successes". However, I did remain supportive and optimistic, because I felt at least like they were capable of getting to and winning a Championship.

(01-11-2018, 04:46 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Who says that merely winning a playoff game = success?  The goal, as with any sports team, is to win the Championship.

I'll bet you that if you interviewed any lifelong Cubs or Redsox fans (both teams were supposedly "cursed", until they weren't) and ask those fans if they were ever satisfied with winning the Wild Card, the Division, or even the Pennant, and if they considered those distinctions as being successful, I think that you would be surprised to learn otherwise.

As a kid and as a young man, I watched my team play for the championship and fail both times.  I was crushed both times, I did not consider those seasons "successes".  However, I did remain supportive and optimistic, because I felt at least like they were capable of getting to and winning a Championship.

What you say is true as a General Rule and every team (even the Bengals) will have the Championship goal.

Before that can happen a Benchmark has to be surpassed.

That Benchmark has been engrained into the minds of Bengal fans for around 27 years now.

Just like Buffalo ending a 17 year Playoff appearance drought, the Bengals have to end a Playoff win drought.

Talk of Super Bowls by Mike & Marvin ring hollow to fans who first need to see the Playoff win benchmark surpassed.

That alone would mark unusual success here in Cincinnati.

It would be celebrated in a way similar to Buffalo's recent celebrations, while Fans of say the Patriots would be less enthused with just a Playoff win.

A Barometer of the True State of the Bengal Organization and where Fans have been forced to set their sights in a way.

When Mike or Marvin talk football, fans don't think Super Bowl around here. They think "win a Playoff game".

Prove to us that you can do that first. Then maybe the Bar of realistic expectations can be raised by Fans.

(01-11-2018, 05:14 PM)depthchart Wrote: What you say is true as a General Rule and every team (even the Bengals) will have the Championship goal.

Before that can happen a Benchmark has to be surpassed.

That Benchmark has been engrained into the minds of Bengal fans for around 27 years now.

Just like Buffalo ending a 17 year Playoff appearance drought, the Bengals have to end a Playoff win drought.

Talk of Super Bowls by Mike & Marvin ring hollow to fans who first need to see the Playoff win benchmark surpassed.

That alone would mark unusual success here in Cincinnati.

It would be celebrated in a way similar to Buffalo's recent celebrations, while Fans of say the Patriots would be less enthused with just a Playoff win.

A Barometer of the True State of the Bengal Organization and where Fans have been forced to set their sights in a way.

When Mike or Marvin talk football, fans don't think Super Bowl around here. They think "win a Playoff game".

Prove to us that you can do that first. Then maybe the Bar of realistic expectations can be raised by Fans.

That "benchmark" is a fictional figment of people's imaginations.  If you don't win your final game of the season, guess what?  You didn't reach your goal of winning the Championship.

If the Bengals were to win a single playoff game, people would be happy.  For one week.  And then, after the season again ended with a loss, back to business as usual for the fans.  Is that enough to call a season a "success"?  Heck no.

The little dog and treat analogy in the OP was cute.  I'll admit, it kept me around long enough to get riled up enough to make a post in this thread.  But, I'm afraid that you may have it all wrong.  A pro football team's fans should not be ready to consider a single playoff victory a "successful" season.  All that would mean is Marvin would then be 1-8 in playoff action. Blah!!

(01-11-2018, 05:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: That "benchmark" is a fictional figment of people's imaginations.  If you don't win your final game of the season, guess what?  You didn't reach your goal of winning the Championship.

If the Bengals were to win a single playoff game, people would be happy.  For one week.  And then, after the season again ended with a loss, back to business as usual for the fans.  Is that enough to call a season a "success"?  Heck no.

The little dog and treat analogy in the OP was cute.  I'll admit, it kept me around long enough to get riled up enough to make a post in this thread.  But, I'm afraid that you may have it all wrong.  A pro football team's fans should not be ready to consider a single playoff victory a "successful" season.  All that would mean is Marvin would then be 1-8 in playoff action. Blah!!

It is an indictment of the Football aptitude of the Bengal Organization.

Not a Final measure of Ultimate success.

Winning a Playoff game would make the 2018 season the most successful season in the Mike Brown era spanning nearly 3 decades.

Fans would mark it as the Pinnacle of success so far for Mike & Marvin.

Never once said that Bengal fans should consider a Playoff victory a "success" but that they would.

That is the sad state Bengal fans are in and thus the indictment.

As you imply, that euphoria will die down after that Playoff win and the expectations bar will finally get raised. As it will in Buffalo.

Until then, Mike & Marvin can "Shock" the City of Cincinnati with a Playoff win and thus the "low bar".

(01-11-2018, 05:58 PM)depthchart Wrote: It is an indictment of the Football aptitude of the Bengal Organization.

Not a Final measure of Ultimate success.

Winning a Playoff game would make the 2018 season the most successful season in the Mike Brown era spanning nearly 3 decades.

Fans would mark it as the Pinnacle of success so far for Mike & Marvin.

Never once said that Bengal fans should consider a Playoff victory a "success" but that they would.

That is the sad state Bengal fans are in and thus the indictment.

As you imply, that euphoria will die down after that Playoff win and the expectations bar will finally get raised. As it will in Buffalo.

Until then, Mike & Marvin can "Shock" the City of Cincinnati with a Playoff win and thus the "low bar".

No ill will intended toward you, but we'll continue to disagree on some of these things.

I will concede this much.  If Marvin wins a Conference Championship, he will have equaled the highest level of success ever seen by this organization.  That would at least change some of the negative media connotation about his tenure with the Bengals.

(01-11-2018, 06:11 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: No ill will intended toward you, but we'll continue to disagree on some of these things.

I will concede this much.  If Marvin wins a Conference Championship, he will have equaled the highest level of success ever seen by this organization.  That would at least change some of the negative media connotation about his tenure with the Bengals.

That Conference Championship win occurred Pre Mike Brown as Owner.

Winning the Playoff game would be the highest level of Mike Brown Ownership era success.

Good conversation.

I get where it may appear that I was making a Playoff win a Beacon of success in the Thread title, however, my intention was to illustrate what Cincy fans would get excited about with a Playoff win (in the shorter term). Then contrasting to say what a Patriot fan would get excited about. (which is the Super Bowl win that "All Fans" of any team should have hopes for as you imply)

In other words, Bengal fans are not asking as much of Marvin as say Patriot fans are asking of Belichick because fans have different expectations of each of their abilities. Fans of both may point to the same Super Bowl goal but have different internal expectations of what will really happen. Hence, Marvin can "Shock" Bengal fans with a playoff win while Belichick would "Shock" Patriot fans if he does not win at least a Playoff game.

Different "bars" of expectations.

(01-10-2018, 02:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You are talking about two different things.

Mike and Marvin would be exonerated regarding everyone who said that they would never win a playoff game, but that is not the same as "setting the bar for success".  Every fan I know wants more than just a playoff win, and I guarantee every coach and player is shooting for more also.

Also EVERY fan of every team in the league celebrates when they win a playoff game.  I have seen it with my own eyes.  So what is so bad about being happy over a playoff victory?

Let me know how it feels if it ever happens. Winning one Playoff game is just a milestone on the road to a Super bowl win for the better managed and coached teams. In Cincy it has become the Holy Grail. Geez! P.A.T.H.E.T.I.C.

(01-11-2018, 09:47 PM)Derrick Wrote: Let me know how it feels if it ever happens. Winning one Playoff game is just a milestone on the road to a Super bowl win for the better managed and coached teams. In Cincy it has become the Holy Grail. Geez! P.A.T.H.E.T.I.C.

But it is not the Holy Grail for fans. The only people who make that claims are the ones trying to make themselves sound superior to "other" Bengal fans.

I remember very well when people around here used to have a favorite stat about how long it had been since the Bengals made the playoffs in back-to-back seasons.  It was their "go to" fact when people claimed that the Bengals were showing improvement by making the playoffs in '05 and '09.  However, as soon as we made the playoffs in back-to-back seasons that stats was completely forgotten, and it wasn't because all the Bengal fans were "happy and satisfied".  

Individual football seasons are all about progress. 

- If a 3-13 team turns around and goes 8-8, it will be viewed as progress and the season viewed as a success.
- If a 12-4 team turns around and goes 8-8, that season is a failure.
- If the Bengals go 1-1 in the playoffs, it would be progress.
- If the Patriots go 1-1 in the playoffs, it would be failure.

The Bills making the playoffs was progress. Now if they make the playoffs and go one-n-done next year, people will start asking questions...because it's not progress. It's becoming stagnant. In the NFL, you're either moving up or moving down. Under Marvin Lewis, we've been mostly stagnant with not much progress. 

These are the hurdles:

1. Becoming a winning team and making the playoffs.
2. Having playoff success 
3. Winning a championship

Marvin has never gotten past step 1 and has struggled at times to even reach step 1. If our fans are happy about a playoff win, it's not because they've accepted mediocrity, it's because it's taking another step towards the ultimate goal. It's progress.

(01-12-2018, 02:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: If our fans are happy about a playoff win, it's not because they've accepted mediocrity, it's because it's taking another step towards the ultimate goal. It's progress.

Major rep.

(01-12-2018, 02:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Individual football seasons are all about progress. 

- If a 3-13 team turns around and goes 8-8, it will be viewed as progress and the season viewed as a success.
- If a 12-4 team turns around and goes 8-8, that season is a failure.
- If the Bengals go 1-1 in the playoffs, it would be progress.
- If the Patriots go 1-1 in the playoffs, it would be failure.

The Bills making the playoffs was progress. Now if they make the playoffs and go one-n-done next year, people will start asking questions...because it's not progress. It's becoming stagnant. In the NFL, you're either moving up or moving down. Under Marvin Lewis, we've been mostly stagnant with not much progress. 

These are the hurdles:

1. Becoming a winning team and making the playoffs.
2. Having playoff success 
3. Winning a championship

Marvin has never gotten past step 1 and has struggled at times to even reach step 1. If our fans are happy about a playoff win, it's not because they've accepted mediocrity, it's because it's taking another step towards the ultimate goal. It's progress.

Very well said.

"Success" then becomes a moving target for Fans depending on how well or how poorly their particular team has been performing.

Winning a game next year will be "success" or "progress" as you put it for Cleveland fans.

The Patriots coming off of a Super Bowl win last year will need to win the Super Bowl again to have "success" or at least maintain the Great "progress" they achieved last year.

Many have interpreted the word "success" in my Thread title as being an Ultimate Final Destination of just winning a Playoff game.

My intention was not to do that but to show where the Bengals moving target of "progress" as you put it is at right now. The Playoff win.

Winning a Playoff game would take a Big Monkey off of Mike & Marvin's backs.

This thread focuses on that Monkey and the Poll on whether Fans think they can do it in the next two seasons.

Not settling for just a Playoff win as Ultimate "success".

 Your word of "progress" may be a better one.

"Progress" is a form of success, but not the Ultimate Goal.

(01-12-2018, 02:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Major rep.

Meh, Captain rep, at best.