(01-20-2018, 11:32 AM)McC Wrote: You CANNOT EVER win a SB building strictly through the draft.  It takes too long.  You'd basically have to hit on every draft pick for four or five years in  row and that has been shown to be impossible.  You have to have one or two or three impact FA's signed from other teams to have a chance due to the inevitable FA losses every team is faced with.

And if you do assemble this magic roster, you'd better win that SB in the one or two year window you will have.  Unless you have a Belichick running your show who can win big no matter who he has, the Bengal way can NEVER win a championship.   Never.  Not Ever.

And to be sure of this, they have Merv to piss it away on game days.  It's the one two punch--Mike to be sure the roster is never good enough and Merv to never be good enough on game day, especially playoff game day.

Face it, fellow Bengal fans, none of us will ever have the chance to celebrate a title.  The organization is set up to guarantee ultimate failure.

Bingo, nail meet hammer

In order for this team as run by Mike Brown and Marvin to win a superbowl we'd have to have a run of dumb luck that you couldn't write a believable story for ! Pushing a rope, hell freeing over, square wheel rolling uphill to you, and on and on.

Why after 26 seasons of failure can MB not see this ?

(01-20-2018, 02:38 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Jim did a great job and I commend him for asking tough questions from multiple angles. I listen to he and Paul's Bengals Beat podcast every week and enjoy it.

I've defended a lot of the Bengals front office decisions over the last 7 seasons, but Mike Brown is an arrogant asshole in this interview. My embargo stands strong. Season tickets cancelled and not buying anything Bengals until he's dead and Marvin's gone.

While I greatly appreciate the candor of his statements, his "**** You", dismissive demeanor towards his fan base is out of touch for 2018. This is hurting not only the Bengals, but the NFL in general. I'll still be a Bengals fan, but other sports franchises/leagues are going to be taking their place as to where I spend my time/money until he's gone. I do so not to hurt Mike Brown (I know it doesn't), but rather to help me find a better group of people to be a spending customer to. My $8-10,000 a year I spend on the Bengals and in Cincy on game days would be better appreciated by the Blue Jackets or FC Cincinnati at this point.

It's always been out of place. Mike Brown is probably the least likable owner in any pro sport. Smug, aloof, distant, dense, stubborn, and defensive are not good character traits for a team owner. 

(01-20-2018, 10:19 AM)Bengalsrob Wrote: Certainly NOT the Tennessee Titans

Ikr? They did give Fisher a ton of rope, but that guy led their franchise within a couple yards of a championship. Mularky had a decent year, but Mariota regressed hard this year.

Must be nice to be a fan of a team that isn't comfortable with "decent".

Slightly OT, but I've lost a ton of respect for Marv over the last few years. To keep accepting these extensions when he knows damn well he doesn't deserve them? Pathetic. Have some dignity ffs. I'll never forget when Bruce Coslet stepped down when he knew he deserved to be fired and Mike just wouldn't pull the trigger. That's a man move.

(01-20-2018, 01:22 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Slightly OT, but I've lost a ton of respect for Marv over the last few years. To keep accepting these extensions when he knows damn well he doesn't deserve them? Pathetic. Have some dignity ffs. I'll never forget when Bruce Coslet stepped down when he knew he deserved to be fired and Mike just wouldn't pull the trigger. That's a man move.

And even then, Mike tried to talk him out of it.

(01-20-2018, 11:38 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And yet people that wanted them to lose out for this very reason (and draft position) were ridiculed for not being true fans...

I was one of them. Even started the dead cat bounce thread on it. Mike Clown has brought back Marvin twice now after a couple of late season wins at the end of underachieving seasons. Winning those games hurt the Bengals draft position ( aka the only way they build the team), and brought back a throughly average coach who is historically inept in the Playoffs. Winning those games allowed Mike Clown to continue his delusional outlook on reality.

(01-20-2018, 11:32 AM)McC Wrote: You CANNOT EVER win a SB building strictly through the draft.  It takes too long.  You'd basically have to hit on every draft pick for four or five years in  row and that has been shown to be impossible.  You have to have one or two or three impact FA's signed from other teams to have a chance due to the inevitable FA losses every team is faced with.

And if you do assemble this magic roster, you'd better win that SB in the one or two year window you will have.  Unless you have a Belichick running your show who can win big no matter who he has, the Bengal way can NEVER win a championship.   Never.  Not Ever.

And to be sure of this, they have Merv to piss it away on game days.  It's the one two punch--Mike to be sure the roster is never good enough and Merv to never be good enough on game day, especially playoff game day.

Face it, fellow Bengal fans, none of us will ever have the chance to celebrate a title.  The organization is set up to guarantee ultimate failure.

I agree with this now,this is the way it is now since free agency started ,teams like the Baltimore ravens proved it,even the Dallas cowboys went and got deion Sanders in their dynasty and who knows who else. People are being fooled to think just build it through the draft this ain't the 80s no more. 

Yes it is true there's teams who try to make their whole team by new and expensive free agents ,that didn't build through the draft at all. You got to do both and that's been one of our big problems,because the free agents we get are not good enough and they play cause they're a vet.then we give extensions way to early and more times then not ,they don't live up to that extension (kirkpatrick) and we let some wrong guys go. 

The most I expect out of this team is a miracle playoff win ,I think the fan base would relish it like a Superbowl, which is kind of sad lol.

Thanks for sharing and having a discussion, guys - thank you!

MrC - He also put a hard kibosh on any thoughts of a different FA approach.

Yeah he did, didn't he?

@Wyche's Warrior - and he totally danced around the Lazor/PA dynamic

Yeah he did. But I think the "we asked some guys not to come back" comment was directed at Paul A. I can tell you for a fact they pushed hard to keep Guenther (and therefore, Lippincott) and Urban. So … that leaves just Paul A and Kevin C. with guys leaving. I can tell you they didn't want them back, but honestly Mike isn't going to throw them under the bus like that.

@PDub80 - thanks for reading and listening!

Why did MB bring Marvin Lewis back? I saw the interview, but, he said the same thing everybody else has been saying! So whats changed

(01-20-2018, 03:34 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Thanks for sharing and having a discussion, guys - thank you!

MrC - He also put a hard kibosh on  any thoughts of a different FA approach.  

Yeah he did, didn't he?

@Wyche's Warrior - and he totally danced around the Lazor/PA dynamic

Yeah he did. But I think the "we asked some guys not to come back" comment was directed at Paul A. I can tell you for a fact they pushed hard to keep Guenther (and therefore, Lippincott) and Urban. So … that leaves just Paul A and Kevin C. with guys leaving. I can tell you they didn't want them back, but honestly Mike isn't going to throw them under the bus like that.

@PDub80 - thanks for reading and listening!

... Good Lord, why? His defense has regressed. What did they finish overall the past few years? 

Granted he wasn't as bad a Chuck Bresnahan but he was heading down the same path IMO. The perma-prevent defense he was becoming a fan of was very concerning... We can only hope that lazy approach came solely from Guenther and is not something that Marv prefers. If constant soft coverage is something Marv wants then I see no improvement coming under Austin. 

(01-19-2018, 07:29 PM)sandwedge Wrote: As long as the players are comfortable. God forbid a new HC come in and change wasn't hasn't work..... But as long as the players are comfy.

Well based on what Lazor has said recently I don't think either Andy or (especially) Ross are going to feel too comfortable

And I will just say, the only way our coaching staff seem to make the players feel uncomfortable is throwing them under the bus in the media - something Marvin has always said is not what he expects of anyone else in his organization - especially the players.

(01-19-2018, 07:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Mike normally doesn't do interviews, and I guess I'm in the minority that didn't think he did too bad in this one and liked some of the things I heard.

Every other year, it's just "we did some things good, but we just need to improve."  This interview has some of that, but it also has more sound of direction and that Mike finally pulled the trigger and did the things needed to improve the team.

He seemed to take notice of the weaknesses and not just say "we need to get better in a lot of areas" and he's actually doing something about it:


It's still up in the air whether or not he'll actually be active in free agency and the draft to try to improve those things, but it sounds like he will and he's acknowledging specific weaknesses instead of just saying general statements about the entire team.

Then he goes on about the coaches and about how the sweeping change should bring an entire change of culture:


The fact that he even says that it's unprecedented (or us, anyways) and that we need new, fresh ideas gets me excited.

Like I said, it sounds like I'm in the minority, but this is another thing for me to like so far this offseason!

Nice post.    He is not an idiot.

But what I'm hearing is this is primarily the offense's fault.   And I disagree.  It is not JUST a function of the offense's ability to stay on the field.  The defense was often a sieve at the beginning of the game.  They have a number of holes on the defense:

• We really have just one bona fide corner.  All the others have significant flaws.  The best two are Jackson and Dennard, but we could use another true shut down corner - one that can tackle
• Our front seven is really bad against the run. 
• Linemen get washed out of their gaps, linebackers can't cover and can't shed - and often cannot tackle. 
• We really only have one good linebacker
• We really only have 2 quality d linemen
  

So I probably underestimate our D, but I think Mr. Brown over estimates our D.

Different offseason, same Mike Brown. Front office strategy will not change until Mike hands it over to Katie or Mike passes away. While no one wishes death on the guy, the reality is he thinks his way works. Twenty six years of evidence to the contrary, he will not budge. Stubborn and foolish as always...

(01-20-2018, 01:31 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: And even then, Mike tried to talk him out of it.

I think Mike Browns exact words to Bruce was, "Bruce don't do this, we're close real close. I like where we are at"

(01-19-2018, 07:02 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Props to Jim, who always does a great job, but Mike has basically been giving these same types of answers for 20 some years now, with slight variations.

My biggest frustration with Mike was pretty much summed up in his first sentence: “I chose not to make a decision on what we were going to do going forward until all the evidence had been submitted."

His evidence for bringing Marvin back for a 16th season was that they played hard down the stretch and beat 2 potential playoff teams.

What about all the other evidence from the last 15 years - 0-7 playoff record, 2-15 home record vs the Steelers, 68-89 record vs AFC teams not from Cleveland (counting PO's)...the abysmal prime time record???

It seems he's extremely selective about what he chooses to see as 'evidence'. As I've said before, he has a long history of ignoring and/or rewarding failure.

It's all total BS and why even we expect anything different would be delusional. I don't care what some say on here about Mike truly wanting to assemble a SB worthy team. MB rewards Marvin for winning the last 2 meaningless games but completely ignores the meaningful games Marvin has failed in. His stubborn loyalty has been the problem and always will be.

(01-20-2018, 09:28 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: Different offseason, same Mike Brown. Front office strategy will not change until Mike hands it over to Katie or Mike passes away. While no one wishes death on the guy, the reality is he thinks his way works. Twenty six years of evidence to the contrary, he will not budge. Stubborn and foolish as always...

Mike Brown's way of running the Bengals does work..... for Mike Brown. He gets his millions of dollars and doesn't have to do anything different to keep it that way. Winning or Losing on the field makes no difference to him because at the end of the season he will always be a winner in his own twisted view. The NFL's profit sharing is partially to blame because it allows Brown to keep his business model going. But ultimately it is largely due to the fact that The Bengals are a family owned and operated franchise that is the ONLY SOURCE OF INCOME FOR THEM! Profit is the driving force, not Super Bowl trophies. The ONLY power Mike Brown doesn't have is deciding if PBS is full or empty on Sundays....that is up to us.

Love to hear if STH's have decided NOT to renew and/if there are any new STH's out there?

(01-20-2018, 03:34 PM)jowczarski Wrote: Thanks for sharing and having a discussion, guys - thank you!

MrC - He also put a hard kibosh on  any thoughts of a different FA approach.  

Yeah he did, didn't he?

@Wyche's Warrior - and he totally danced around the Lazor/PA dynamic

Yeah he did. But I think the "we asked some guys not to come back" comment was directed at Paul A. I can tell you for a fact they pushed hard to keep Guenther (and therefore, Lippincott) and Urban. So … that leaves just Paul A and Kevin C. with guys leaving. I can tell you they didn't want them back, but honestly Mike isn't going to throw them under the bus like that.

@PDub80 - thanks for reading and listening!

Yeah, a lot of fans got excited at the notion that they were actively looking to shake up the staff, but evidently - according to you and others - they wanted to bring Guenther, Lippy and Urban back. 

If that had happened, the only real changes would have been filling QB coach, OL (which was needed and long overdue) and secondary. The staff 'overhaul' seems to have happened more out of necessity than intent.

Mike Brown isn't loyal, he's lazy and incompetent as an owner and it bleeds all the way down to the last person involved with the Bengals. These past two interviews he's given this past week with Jim O and Hobson only solidify it.


“I made the call for more than one reason,” Brown said. “It gives us our best chance to be successful this coming season. Marvin gives us continuity...."

Continuity?  Your right Mike, and you know what that is? A mediocre team year after year that never came close to challenging other top teams. If thats what kind of continuity your looking for....you've got it with Marvin.

"I also made the call because I felt he deserved consideration for all the time and effort he has put in here. He’s been our head coach for 15 years. That ought to be to his credit."

Why didn't you have that same loyalty to Whit this offseason and other great players in the past? Its because of the money and hiring new coaching means more work for you Mike. Marvin's been here so long you dont have to do much. You must also be missing the point that Marvin is an employee, a hired hand. If I was your financial advisor and for 15 years lost money every year you invested by my ill advise, would you continue to keep me employed?

"We beat two teams that were in playoff runs. We beat them in games that were important for them where they gave their best shot and I was impressed how we rebounded. That played into what was in my mind when I had to make a final call.”

So you made the decision to re hire Lewis based on the last two meaningless games of the season and not the past 15 years of what Lewis has done...or didn't do? Where is the logic in this?

and my favorite line by Mike?

"And if we win, it will be great. If we don’t, you’ll be right back here asking why.”

and your answer will be the same...we're close...we're close.

I lost brain cells reading the two articles on how incredibly stupid Mike Brown is with his reasoning of why re-hiring Lewis is the best way for this team to win a Super Bowl....

I really hope the stands are empty this upcoming season to unprecedented levels, just to send a message to Brown that the fans are sick of the way he's been running this team from the day he took over.

(01-21-2018, 08:49 PM)GodFather Wrote: Mike Brown isn't loyal, he's lazy and incompetent as an owner and it bleeds all the way down to the last person involved with the Bengals. These past two interviews he's given this past week with Jim O and Hobson only solidify it.


“I made the call for more than one reason,” Brown said. “It gives us our best chance to be successful this coming season. Marvin gives us continuity...."

Continuity?  Your right Mike, and you know what that is? A mediocre team year after year that never came close to challenging other top teams. If thats what kind of continuity your looking for....you've got it with Marvin.

"I also made the call because I felt he deserved consideration for all the time and effort he has put in here. He’s been our head coach for 15 years. That ought to be to his credit."

Why didn't you have that same loyalty to Whit this offseason and other great players in the past? Its because of the money and hiring new coaching means more work for you Mike. Marvin's been here so long you dont have to do much. You must also be missing the point that Marvin is an employee, a hired hand. If I was your financial advisor and for 15 years lost money every year you invested by my ill advise, would you continue to keep me employed?

"We beat two teams that were in playoff runs. We beat them in games that were important for them where they gave their best shot and I was impressed how we rebounded. That played into what was in my mind when I had to make a final call.”

So you made the decision to re hire Lewis based on the last two meaningless games of the season and not the past 15 years of what Lewis has done...or didn't do? Where is the logic in this?

and my favorite line by Mike?

"And if we win, it will be great. If we don’t, you’ll be right back here asking why.”

and your answer will be the same...we're close...we're close.

I lost brain cells reading the two articles on how incredibly stupid Mike Brown is with his reasoning of why re-hiring Lewis is the best way for this team to win a Super Bowl....

I really hope the stands are empty this upcoming season to unprecedented levels, just to send a message to Brown that the fans are sick of the way he's been running this team from the day he took over.

Continuity only works if you’re the Pats and have Belichick and Brady, aka the most successful postseason duo in NFL history. Marvin has had 15 years and 7 chances at the postseason. Continuity has gotten the Bengals several dubious NFL records for futility. Every other organization would have made the necessary changes years ago. Not Mike Brown. We’re stuck with the 60th percentile in a good season, mediocrity in a bad season.

Honest question:

Can the league offices step in and forcibly remove Mike Brown from his ownership role if he's deemed mentally ill/stricken with dementia by professionals?