(02-05-2018, 02:41 PM)lone bengal Wrote: My thing is if the Bengals sign Bodine I’m assuming it will be for starting center money vs backup money. So If theirs a high rated center in the draft let’s say in round two like maybe Price or the kid from Iowa I think the Bengals logic would be were not drafting a center that high because were paying Bodine starting money.

unfortunately probably true

(02-07-2018, 02:07 PM)bengals67 Wrote: This is not a rational organization.

To be fair, this is not a rational fan base either.

Remember when playing Peko was "proof the Bengals don't care about winning"?  Remember when Dre Kirkpatrick played like a top 30 CB and people here were acting he was the worst in the league?

The Bengals have the worst owner in the league who spends the least on outside free agents, yet over the last 8 years only FIVE teams have a better record.

Bengals have some problems they need to address, but our coaches are outperforming an overwhelming majority of the league.

(01-28-2018, 11:24 PM)CanadianBengal Wrote: Unless it was Pollack who raised Lazerus from the dead I'm not optimistic. 

Yes Alexander had lost his touch but no way that Bodines struggles are all on the coach. Bengals have had some great lineman who got better with experience. Bodine had a long run to learn the game. He was surrounded by some solid pros. 

He clearly showed he is not hood enough. 

It feels like Marv always keeps the player fans hate the most. I honestly can't belueve that is intentional but..........

Just curious, how long ago would you say that we had a above average center?

(02-07-2018, 02:43 PM)fullonbehavior Wrote: Just curious, how long ago would you say that we had a above average center?

I know you did not ask me, but Kyle Cook was a very good center before he got injured.

And to make another point that many people around here forget, when Cook failed to recover from his injury and played poorly the Bengals cut him while he was stillunder contract.

(02-07-2018, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To be fair, this is not a rational fan base either.

27 years without a playoff will do that for ya.....

(02-05-2018, 02:41 PM)lone bengal Wrote: My thing is if the Bengals sign Bodine I’m assuming it will be for starting center money vs backup money. So If theirs a high rated center in the draft let’s say in round two like maybe Price or the kid from Iowa I think the Bengals logic would be were not drafting a center that high because were paying Bodine starting money.

This FO would be completely stupid to give Bodine starter money after him being ranked atleast near the worst Center
in the league since he came into it. With you on this one. But if they just let him sit out there while no one even looks
at him and bring him back at backup price i am not against it. Especially if Pollack thinks he can work with him.

(02-05-2018, 04:13 PM)sandwedge Wrote: And your logic would be right. The only thing I can think of is Pollack sees something flawed with Bodine's mechanics or his system is very different than the last idiot's, that Russell fits better....

Yep, and that is what was so terrible about PA making the pick in the first place.

Bodine didn't even fit the scheme we ran.

(02-07-2018, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To be fair, this is not a rational fan base either.

Remember when playing Peko was "proof the Bengals don't care about winning"?  Remember when Dre Kirkpatrick played like a top 30 CB and people here were acting he was the worst in the league?

The Bengals have the worst owner in the league who spends the least on outside free agents, yet over the last 8 years only FIVE teams have a better record.

Bengals have some problems they need to address, but our coaches are outperforming an overwhelming majority of the league.

And you are proof of some of that irrationality Fred...

The coaching is what has held this team back from performing when it matters, in the Playoffs.

It is not a coincidence that everytime we get there the team sucks no matter who the players are.

Even our best players do not play well besides Burfict against the Steelers.

(02-05-2018, 02:41 PM)lone bengal Wrote: My thing is if the Bengals sign Bodine I’m assuming it will be for starting center money vs backup money. So If theirs a high rated center in the draft let’s say in round two like maybe Price or the kid from Iowa I think the Bengals logic would be were not drafting a center that high because were paying Bodine starting money.

The tell will be not just if Bodine is signed, but if he's signed to a multi year deal at starter money.  If that happens, you can likely forget about the Bengals drafting a highly rated Center prospect.

(02-07-2018, 04:08 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: And you are proof of some of that irrationality Fred...

The coaching is what has held this team back from performing when it matters, in the Playoffs.

It is not a coincidence that everytime we get there the team sucks no matter who the players are.

Even our best players do not play well besides Burfict against the Steelers.

Fred just wants people to be appreciative of the fact the Bengals have been one of the most successful regular-season teams since Dalton came into the league.
And while I completely understand that mindset and do think most of us have taken playoff appearances for granted, it's pretty evident the majority of the fan base just wants to see that elusive playoff win.
Maybe if/when the Bengals do get that playoff win, we'll start seeing more appreciation for regular-season wins again.

What would the fans consider more successful?
1) Five consecutive playoff appearances but no playoff wins
2) Two playoff appearances in a span of five years but one playoff victory

(02-07-2018, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To be fair, this is not a rational fan base either.

Remember when playing Peko was "proof the Bengals don't care about winning"?  Remember when Dre Kirkpatrick played like a top 30 CB and people here were acting he was the worst in the league?

The Bengals have the worst owner in the league who spends the least on outside free agents, yet over the last 8 years only FIVE teams have a better record.

Bengals have some problems they need to address, but our coaches are outperforming an overwhelming majority of the league.

Come on Fred

0-7 in playoffs

How many playoff wins in the history of the franchise- 3 or 4 in 50 years? And all of those before Mike took over?

record against Steelers overall and at home.

What rational organization does not make big changes after these facts

Would the Eagles have won Super Bowl with Reid or Chip Kelly?

And I will plead guilty. But  who can blame the long suffering fans - including me who has watched this for over 50 years- for losing our minds to some extent.

The Bengals fans are some of the best and most loyal in all pro sports under these circumstances. Pleasing the fans or fan loyalty are not big issues with Mike Brown.

(02-07-2018, 04:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Fred just wants people to be appreciative of the fact the Bengals have been one of the most successful regular-season teams since Dalton came into the league.
And while I completely understand that mindset and do think most of us have taken playoff appearances for granted, it's pretty evident the majority of the fan base just wants to see that elusive playoff win.
Maybe if/when the Bengals do get that playoff win, we'll start seeing more appreciation for regular-season wins again.

What would the fans consider more successful?
1) Five consecutive playoff appearances but no playoff wins
2) Two playoff appearances in a span of five years but one playoff victory

Definately 2, atleast we would know Marv and company could win a playoff game that way.

The proof is in the pudding as Bengals67 here says, 0-7.

(02-07-2018, 04:27 PM)bengals67 Wrote: Come on Fred

0-7 in playoffs

How many playoff wins in the history of the franchise- 3 or 4 in 50 years? And all of those before Mike took over?

record against Steelers overall and at home.

What rational organization does not make big changes after these facts

Would the Eagles have won Super Bowl with Reid or Chip Kelly?

And I will plead guilty. But  who can blame the long suffering fans - including me who has watched this for over 50 years- for losing our minds to some extent.

The Bengals fans are some of the best and most loyal in all pro sports under these circumstances. Pleasing the fans or fan loyalty are not big issues with Mike Brown.

Spot on, the fans are not the ones who need ridiculing here...

Complete irrationality on Fred's part.

Thank God most Bengal fans are more rational.

(02-07-2018, 04:08 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: The coaching is what has held this team back from performing when it matters, in the Playoffs.

"When we get to the playoffs" being the point I was making.

If the coaches were as bad as so many of you claim we would never make the playoffs to begin with.  We would not win more games than all but 5 other teams over the last 8 years.  I am not saying our coaches are great, but they are not as clueless as many  of you claim.  Especially when you factor in the handicap of having Mike Brown as owner.

And its not like a lot of the Bengal players who stunk in the playoffs have gone to other teams and been playoff game stars.  Carson Palmers postseason passer rating for the Bengals was 66.5 compared to 67.1 with the Cardinals.

In most of the playoff games Marvin has coached the other team had more talent.  And against the chargers I can't blame Marvin For Gio fumbling at the goal line and Dalton fumbling for no apparent reason.

(02-07-2018, 04:21 PM)ochocincos Wrote: What would the fans consider more successful?
1) Five consecutive playoff appearances but no playoff wins
2) Two playoff appearances in a span of five years but one playoff victory

Number 2.  One playoff win can look like nothing but luck if the team is not consistently good.

If we don't win it all then one playoff win is not that big of a deal for me.  I would rather have an entire season of winning more games and making the playoffs.

(02-07-2018, 05:56 PM)fredtoast Wrote: "When we get to the playoffs" being the point I was making.

If the coaches were as bad as so many of you claim we would never make the playoffs to begin with.  We would not win more games than all but 5 other teams over the last 8 years.  I am not saying our coaches are great, but they are not as clueless as many  of you claim.  Especially when you factor in the handicap of having Mike Brown as owner.

And its not like a lot of the Bengal players who stunk in the playoffs have gone to other teams and been playoff game stars.  Carson Palmers postseason passer rating for the Bengals was 66.5 compared to 67.1 with the Cardinals.

In most of the playoff games Marvin has coached the other team had more talent.  And against the chargers I can't blame Marvin For Gio fumbling at the goal line and Dalton fumbling for no apparent reason.

This sort of illustrates the problem Fred.

The Bengals have had 7 opportunities in the playoffs. During those 7 opportunities, there have been different scenarios: favorites, underdogs, home, away, more talented, less talented, relatively healthy, important injuries, etc, etc. 

The Bengals have been able take advantage of, or win in spite of, exactly zero of those situations. Zero times in 7 chances. That's more than just players not performing well. It's more than just mistakes or bad breaks. It's a failing from the top - Marvin and his staffs...from game plans, to adjustments, to preparation for big stage pressure.

When you lose 7 times in 7 straight chances, including 5 consecutive, all under the same head coach...there comes a point where the obvious conclusion is that the head coach is in over his head in terms of the challenges of postseason play. People can make as many excuses as they want for each individual game, but at the end of the day - instead of talking about a playoff win or two - that's all we're left with...a myriad of excuses.

(02-07-2018, 06:46 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: When you lose 7 times in 7 straight chances, including 5 consecutive, all under the same head coach...there comes a point where the obvious conclusion is that the head coach is in over his head in terms of the challenges of postseason play.

Not when he was not favored to win many of those games because the other team had more talent.

Do you think Belichick does not try as hard to win in the regular season as he does in the playoffs?  I don't.

Do you think Mike Shanahan, Rex Ryan, and Gary Kubiak are better postseason coaches than Belichick?  They have all beaten him in the playoffs. 

John Harbaugh has has a winning record against Belichick in the postseason.  Does that mean John is a better coach the Bill?

The answer is that you can not judge a coach on a small sample size.  You can't say that Belichicks 11 postseason losses in don't count because he has won other postseason games.  If it really was all about coaching then Bill would never have lost any of those.  Losing in the playoffs is about a bunch of different things like talent, matchups, and sometimes just plain luck.  The fact that Marvin has lost 3 playoff games where he was favored does not mean it is impossible for him to win in the postseason.  that is just too small of a sample size.

And you can't just brush this off as being crazy to compare Marvin to Bill.  That is not what I am doing.  Instead I am using Belichick as an example because most people here would consider him one of the greatest postseason coaches of all time yet he has 11 post season losses.

(02-07-2018, 06:46 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: This sort of illustrates the problem Fred.

The Bengals have had 7 opportunities in the playoffs. During those 7 opportunities, there have been different scenarios: favorites, underdogs, home, away, more talented, less talented, relatively healthy, important injuries, etc, etc. 

The Bengals have been able take advantage of, or win in spite of, exactly zero of those situations. Zero times in 7 chances. That's more than just players not performing well. It's more than just mistakes or bad breaks. It's a failing from the top - Marvin and his staffs...from game plans, to adjustments, to preparation for big stage pressure.

When you lose 7 times in 7 straight chances, including 5 consecutive, all under the same head coach...there comes a point where the obvious conclusion is that the head coach is in over his head in terms of the challenges of postseason play. People can make as many excuses as they want for each individual game, but at the end of the day - instead of talking about a playoff win or two - that's all we're left with...a myriad of excuses.

I haven't researched the exact mathematical statistics on the likelihood of losing 7 straight playoff appearances, but I would imagine the odds to be pretty slim.

(02-07-2018, 02:36 PM)fredtoast Wrote: To be fair, this is not a rational fan base either.

Remember when playing Peko was "proof the Bengals don't care about winning"?  Remember when Dre Kirkpatrick played like a top 30 CB and people here were acting he was the worst in the league?

The Bengals have the worst owner in the league who spends the least on outside free agents, yet over the last 8 years only FIVE teams have a better record.

Bengals have some problems they need to address, but our coaches are outperforming an overwhelming majority of the league.

Kirkpatrick is still garbage.   Dude you're killing me

(02-07-2018, 07:43 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Not when he was not favored to win many of those games because the other team had more talent.

You do realize lesser teams or underdog teams sometimes beat better/favored teams in the postseason, correct? How many times have the Bengals done it under Lewis?

Quote:Do you think Belichick does not try as hard to win in the regular season as he does in the playoffs? I don't.

I think Belichick wants to win every single game he coaches, just as every coach does. He's also proven he can rise to the challenges of postseason play.

Marvin has yet to prove he can win a single playoff game.

Quote:Do you think Mike Shanahan, Rex Ryan, and Gary Kubiak are better postseason coaches than Belichick?  They have all beaten him in the playoffs.   

They are coaches that achieved different levels of success in the postseason...but no, they aren't better than Belichick because Belichick is arguably the greatest of all-time.

Also, it doesn't change the fact that Marvin hasn't beaten anyone in the playoffs.

Quote:John Harbaugh has has a winning record against Belichick in the postseason.  Does that mean John is a better coach the Bill?

Again, Harbaugh was a good coach who was able to achieve a level of success in the postseason, but Belichick is perhap the greatest of all-time. So no, Harbaugh isn't better.

And once again, Marvin hasn't won a single playoff game.

Quote:The answer is that you can not judge a coach on a small sample size.  You can't say that Belichicks 11 postseason losses in don't count because he has won other postseason games.  If it really was all about coaching then Bill would never have lost any of those.  Losing in the playoffs is about a bunch of different things like talent, matchups, and sometimes just plain luck.  The fact that Marvin has lost 3 playoff games where he was favored does not mean it is impossible for him to win in the postseason.  that is just too small of a sample size.

You're point about Belichick here has no bearing on the reality of Marvin's failures. Of course Belichick's losses count. His teams lost those games and they're a part of his record. However, there is this thing called perspective. When you balance Belichick's losses with all the playoffs wins, SB appearances and Championships...it's fairly obvious that he's probably the best ever at competing in the postseason.

When you look at Marvin's playoff record, and apply the same perspective, you see that he has failed in the postseason in a way that defies probability. Only one coach in the entire history has failed to win a playoff game with at least 7 appearances and 15 seasons. Only one.

Quote:And you can't just brush this off as being crazy to compare Marvin to Bill.  That is not what I am doing.  Instead I am using Belichick as an example because most people here would consider him one of the greatest postseason coaches of all time yet he has 11 post season losses.

Yeah, I agree that using Belichick in an way, shape or form to make any type of analogy or comparison to a coach that has set NFL records in playoff futility would be absolutely crazy.

(02-07-2018, 08:07 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I haven't researched the exact mathematical statistics on the likelihood of losing 7 straight playoff appearances, but I would imagine the odds to be pretty slim.

Fun fact: 9 coaches in NFL history have appeared in exactly 7 playoff games...and 8 of them have at least 3 wins. 

(02-07-2018, 09:43 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Kirkpatrick is still garbage.   Dude you're killing me

Thanks for proving my point.  You were one of the guys who claimed Peko was so bad no other team would have him as a starter then a team with one of the best defenses in the league signs him for more than the Bengals paid him and made him a starter.

Kirkpatrick has not been garbage for years.  People who talk like this are just repeating message board myths.  And they think that if enough no-nothings agree with them then they must be right.