(02-14-2018, 11:29 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Sounds exactly how the Bengals treat us as fans, wouldn't you say?

List all of the teams in the league who ask the fans what to do before making a move.

Fans who think ANY team cares what they say are clueless.

"Ohh the Bengals are so MEAN to us poor little fans.  They never let us tell them what to do."

(02-14-2018, 12:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: List all of the teams in the league who ask the fans what to do before making a move.

Fans who think ANY team cares what they say are clueless.

"Ohh the Bengals are so MEAN to us poor little fans.  They never let us tell them what to do."

Sure wish they would have listened when everybody wanted Zimmer as our HC. 

(02-14-2018, 12:23 PM)Go Cards Wrote: Sure wish they would have listened when everybody wanted Zimmer as our HC. 

Zimmer needed an absolute miracle to win a playoff game.  In his other two post season games his Vikings have blown a 2 score lead in the fourth quarter and gotten blown out at home.

Not bashing Zimmer.  I actually like the guy a lot.  But he is not the god that some here seem to think.  His defenses stunk it up in the playoffs while he was here.

(02-14-2018, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zimmer needed an absolute miracle to win a playoff game.  In his other two post season games his Vikings have blown a 2 score lead in the fourth quarter and gotten blown out at home.

Not bashing Zimmer.  I actually like the guy a lot.  But he is not the god that some here seem to think.  His defenses stunk it up in the playoffs while he was here.

Well he kind of needed a miracle to lose his first one. Maybe a half-miracle.

(02-14-2018, 09:50 AM)Au165 Wrote: It's not about rocket science it's about the ignorance of 99% of fans. Most fans have no real clue how things work from actual play design and responsibilities, to scouting, and even cap management. You can hate the coaches results but the constant smug comments by fans here about how obvious every decision or move is gets so annoying when people honestly have no clue.

(02-14-2018, 12:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote: List all of the teams in the league who ask the fans what to do before making a move.

Fans who think ANY team cares what they say are clueless.

"Ohh the Bengals are so MEAN to us poor little fans.  They never let us tell them what to do."

Did you bother reading what I was replying too? I was just pointing out that, yeah, most fans are probably ignorant and smug when it comes to running a team, but so are the Bengals brass when it comes to interacting with the fans. But nice try on spinning it around.

(02-14-2018, 12:44 PM)michaelsean Wrote: Well he kind of needed a miracle to lose his first one. Maybe a half-miracle.

He had a 9 point lead in the fourth quarter, and that was a bit of a miracle considering that the Vikings offense was worse in that game (183 total yards) than the bengals have been in their playoff losses.

(02-14-2018, 12:55 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Did you bother reading what I was replying too? I was just pointing out that, yeah, most fans are probably ignorant and smug when it comes to running a team, but so are the Bengals brass when it comes to interacting with the fans. But nice try on spinning it around.

Okay then, please tell me how the Bengals should "interact" with the fans.

(02-14-2018, 12:19 PM)fredtoast Wrote:
"Ohh the Bengals are so MEAN to us poor little fans.  They never let us tell them what to do."

I don't think it's as much letting anyone tell them what to do as much as it is wanting them to step into the modern era like other organizations and getting over that 27 year hump.

(02-14-2018, 01:04 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Okay then, please tell me how the Bengals should "interact" with the fans.

Start but addressing what the fans are asking for, instead of deflecting blame and/or excuse making. Just tell us you're going to work hell and high water to fix this. Don't say "it's a really tough league to win in, shut up and be happy" BS. Or say you're not. I don't really care, but don't say it's really hard to do so be happy we're not the Browns. 

Quote:Enquirer: You mentioned the short term work to do with the public. Were you concerned with the lack of attendance at the end of the year?

Brown: “Clearly, our attendance was off. The best single thing we can do to re-establish our attendance is to win on the field. All the other things are peripheral to that. We won’t be able to improve any of that until we get out there and have our chance to do so. But that is the key. I suppose there are other things. We have people that work on the other things and we try to do them right. You mentioned the 50th-anniversary celebration. We brought old-timers back on a weekly basis and I thought that went extremely well. Yet doing that is not going to fill the seats. They’re going to come when we win. In some ways, ours is a hard market. It is the fact that our people are judgmental about us. They are often easy to condemn when it doesn’t go to their standards. But we’re coming off a run of playoff years and they began to see that as the bare minimum. Well, maybe for them it is. For most people in this league, it’s a pretty solid achievement. I think only a couple of other teams have managed that during that same time period. But we didn’t go forward from that. We didn’t have success in the playoffs. And that was our undoing.
"Now, here we are, having fallen off some. And we have to collect ourselves and come back to that level or better. That’s the goal.”

(02-13-2018, 05:33 PM)Au165 Wrote: ...but they still know more than us hence why they are in the league and we aren't. No matter how much people want to arm chair every decision if we actually knew what we were talking about we wouldn't be here we'd be there. Over simplification of situations and context of decisions doesn't work in the real world like it does around here.

Not unless our last name was Brown or Blackburn. I guess a last name automatically makes you qualified though.

(02-14-2018, 09:50 AM)Au165 Wrote: It's not about rocket science it's about the ignorance of 99% of fans. Most fans have no real clue how things work from actual play design and responsibilities, to scouting, and even cap management. You can hate the coaches results but the constant smug comments by fans here about how obvious every decision or move is gets so annoying when people honestly have no clue.

Nor do the folks getting paid to do those things in Cincinnati, apparently, as our 27 year streak would attest to.

Seriously though, it doesn't take an NFL insider to look at how other teams are doing it, how "different" the Bengals do it, then look at the results over the last 27 years and realize something is wrong.

(02-14-2018, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Zimmer needed an absolute miracle to win a playoff game.  In his other two post season games his Vikings have blown a 2 score lead in the fourth quarter and gotten blown out at home.

Not bashing Zimmer.  I actually like the guy a lot.  But he is not the god that some here seem to think.  His defenses stunk it up in the playoffs while he was here.

My goodness. If you judged Marv by the same standards you're holding Zimmer to, you'd be the biggest hater on this message board.

Zimmer took what? 4 seasons to do something Marvin is still trying to do in year 16?

(02-14-2018, 01:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Not unless our last name was Brown or Blackburn. I guess a last name automatically makes you qualified though.


Nor do the folks getting paid to do those things in Cincinnati, apparently, as our 27 year streak would attest to.

Seriously though, it doesn't take an NFL insider to look at how other teams are doing it, how "different" the Bengals do it, then look at the results over the last 27 years and realize something is wrong.


My goodness. If you judged Marv by the same standards you're holding Zimmer to, you'd be the biggest hater on this message board.

Zimmer took what? 4 seasons to do something Marvin is still trying to do in year 16?

This is what it all boils down to with the fans of this team.....we see the rampant nepotism, the small scouting department (for example), and going into the third decade of failure for the FO, and the 2nd decade of mediocrity for Merv.  It's not like people are jumping up and down two years removed from a Super Bowl or anything.  When does enough finally become......enough?

(02-14-2018, 01:24 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Start but addressing what the fans are asking for, instead of deflecting blame and/or excuse making. Just tell us you're going to work hell and high water to fix this. Don't say "it's a really tough league to win in, shut up and be happy" BS. Or say you're not. I don't really care, but don't say it's really hard to do so be happy we're not the Browns. 

So you did not even read the article you linked did you?  You basically hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else.  Nowhere does he "deflect the blame".  Who do you claim he is deflecting the blame to?  And no where does he say "shut up and be happy".  Instead he repeatedly syas that they have not done well enough and need to improve.

"We had a disappointing season because we didn’t win our share of those close games that we could’ve, should’ve won. I think it goes beyond that, though. I think we tailed off in some areas that brought us down. I think those issues are correctable. I don’t think we’re far off. I think we can make the changes that we need to make and quickly rebound to the level where we were a couple years ago.”

"We have to do better in certain areas. We’re going to try to. They are different ways to attack each and every one of those problem areas that we have. We have talked about that repeatedly. Not just in the last couple weeks but over the course of the season."

"Everybody wants to win the Super Bowl. Obviously. That’s what we all want to do. We’re going to make our best effort to do that."

“We all want (to win the Super Bowl). Every owner wants that. Every coach wants that. I think Marvin said that because there is a theme amongst all the other themes that somehow we really don’t aspire to a high enough goal. That’s baloney. We’re no different than any other team. We all have the same goal. When you have to say publicly things such as that, you’re just playing a game of sorts. I guess you have to do it. So, Marvin felt the pressure and he said what he thought was going to quiet the onslaught in the moment. And that’s all right. But the basic thing is to keep in mind is yes, we want to do that. Everybody wants to do that. The guy that asked that question wants us to do that. We want to do it. And every team in the National Football League and their fans want to do it. It’s a given. To have to dwell on it is, to me, unnecessary. But maybe you do.”

“We were way off offensively last year. It starts with pass protection. We’ve got to get that up to standard. We have to run the ball more effectively than we did over the course of the year. At the end of the year, we were (more effective). So perhaps we’re closer to putting together one of those pieces that has to be corrected. The pass protection issue is still out there and we will work to try to make that what it needs to be. I honestly feel that on offense, overall, we have enough people to be good. We do intend to shore it up. That is one of our principal goals."

".  .  .  we’re coming off a run of playoff years and they began to see that as the bare minimum. Well, maybe for them it is. For most people in this league, it’s a pretty solid achievement. I think only a couple of other teams have managed that during that same time period. But we didn’t go forward from that. We didn’t have success in the playoffs. And that was our undoing."

"We haven’t quite gotten where we needed to get. He knows that. I know that.
"

(02-14-2018, 01:55 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: My goodness. If you judged Marv by the same standards you're holding Zimmer to, you'd be the biggest hater on this message board.

Zimmer took what? 4 seasons to do something Marvin is still trying to do in year 16?

Zimmer took over a team that was one year removed from making the playoffs.  Marvin inherited a team that had not had a single winning season in 12 years.

Mike Zimmer does not have the handicap of having Mike Brown as an owner.

And Zimmer still needed a complete miracle to win a single playoff game after blowing a 10 point lead in the fourth quarter.

And if I judged head coaches the way you do I would be saying that Dom Capers was better than Mike Zimmer.  Capers not only won a playoff game quicker than Zimmer, but he also has a better post season record than Zimmer.  That is the onnly thing that matters, right?

(02-14-2018, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you did not even read the article you linked did you?  You basically hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else.  Nowhere does he "deflect the blame".  Who do you claim he is deflecting the blame to?  And no where does he say "shut up and be happy".  Instead he repeatedly syas that they have not done well enough and need to improve.

"We had a disappointing season because we didn’t win our share of those close games that we could’ve, should’ve won. I think it goes beyond that, though. I think we tailed off in some areas that brought us down. I think those issues are correctable. I don’t think we’re far off. I think we can make the changes that we need to make and quickly rebound to the level where we were a couple years ago.”

"We have to do better in certain areas. We’re going to try to. They are different ways to attack each and every one of those problem areas that we have. We have talked about that repeatedly. Not just in the last couple weeks but over the course of the season."

"Everybody wants to win the Super Bowl. Obviously. That’s what we all want to do. We’re going to make our best effort to do that."

“We all want (to win the Super Bowl). Every owner wants that. Every coach wants that. I think Marvin said that because there is a theme amongst all the other themes that somehow we really don’t aspire to a high enough goal. That’s baloney. We’re no different than any other team. We all have the same goal. When you have to say publicly things such as that, you’re just playing a game of sorts. I guess you have to do it. So, Marvin felt the pressure and he said what he thought was going to quiet the onslaught in the moment. And that’s all right. But the basic thing is to keep in mind is yes, we want to do that. Everybody wants to do that. The guy that asked that question wants us to do that. We want to do it. And every team in the National Football League and their fans want to do it. It’s a given. To have to dwell on it is, to me, unnecessary. But maybe you do.”

“We were way off offensively last year. It starts with pass protection. We’ve got to get that up to standard. We have to run the ball more effectively than we did over the course of the year. At the end of the year, we were (more effective). So perhaps we’re closer to putting together one of those pieces that has to be corrected. The pass protection issue is still out there and we will work to try to make that what it needs to be. I honestly feel that on offense, overall, we have enough people to be good. We do intend to shore it up. That is one of our principal goals."

".  .  .  we’re coming off a run of playoff years and they began to see that as the bare minimum. Well, maybe for them it is. For most people in this league, it’s a pretty solid achievement. I think only a couple of other teams have managed that during that same time period. But we didn’t go forward from that. We didn’t have success in the playoffs. And that was our undoing."

"We haven’t quite gotten where we needed to get. He knows that. I know that.
"

I can tell you that I am trying to loose 25 pounds off my spare tire belly, but if you catch me eating at McDonalds every day what kind of conflicting message is that?

(02-14-2018, 02:07 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So you did not even read the article you linked did you?  You basically hear what you want to hear and ignore everything else.  Nowhere does he "deflect the blame".  Who do you claim he is deflecting the blame to?  And no where does he say "shut up and be happy".  Instead he repeatedly syas that they have not done well enough and need to improve.

"We had a disappointing season because we didn’t win our share of those close games that we could’ve, should’ve won. I think it goes beyond that, though. I think we tailed off in some areas that brought us down. I think those issues are correctable. I don’t think we’re far off. I think we can make the changes that we need to make and quickly rebound to the level where we were a couple years ago.”

"We have to do better in certain areas. We’re going to try to. They are different ways to attack each and every one of those problem areas that we have. We have talked about that repeatedly. Not just in the last couple weeks but over the course of the season."

"Everybody wants to win the Super Bowl. Obviously. That’s what we all want to do. We’re going to make our best effort to do that."

“We all want (to win the Super Bowl). Every owner wants that. Every coach wants that. I think Marvin said that because there is a theme amongst all the other themes that somehow we really don’t aspire to a high enough goal. That’s baloney. We’re no different than any other team. We all have the same goal. When you have to say publicly things such as that, you’re just playing a game of sorts. I guess you have to do it. So, Marvin felt the pressure and he said what he thought was going to quiet the onslaught in the moment. And that’s all right. But the basic thing is to keep in mind is yes, we want to do that. Everybody wants to do that. The guy that asked that question wants us to do that. We want to do it. And every team in the National Football League and their fans want to do it. It’s a given. To have to dwell on it is, to me, unnecessary. But maybe you do.”

“We were way off offensively last year. It starts with pass protection. We’ve got to get that up to standard. We have to run the ball more effectively than we did over the course of the year. At the end of the year, we were (more effective). So perhaps we’re closer to putting together one of those pieces that has to be corrected. The pass protection issue is still out there and we will work to try to make that what it needs to be. I honestly feel that on offense, overall, we have enough people to be good. We do intend to shore it up. That is one of our principal goals."

".  .  .  we’re coming off a run of playoff years and they began to see that as the bare minimum. Well, maybe for them it is. For most people in this league, it’s a pretty solid achievement. I think only a couple of other teams have managed that during that same time period. But we didn’t go forward from that. We didn’t have success in the playoffs. And that was our undoing."

"We haven’t quite gotten where we needed to get. He knows that. I know that.
"

sorry, forgot to answer your question. I highlighted the part when he started to deflect in my post. 

(02-14-2018, 02:02 PM)Wyche Wrote: This is what it all boils down to with the fans of this team.....we see the rampant nepotism, the small scouting department (for example), and going into the third decade of failure for the FO, and the 2nd decade of mediocrity for Merv.  It's not like people are jumping up and down two years removed from a Super Bowl or anything.  When does enough finally become......enough?

We're coming off of 2 straight losing seasons and 27 without a playoff win. What are we even defending? It certainly isn't excellence. It isn't even "good". It's a whole lot of bad, followed by some mediocrity, then stagnating at "pretty good, but can't win a playoff game", followed by pretty bad again. If there was even a single run to the AFC title game mixed in there somewhere (during Marv's tenure), I don't think people would be nearly as frustrated. 

Or if Mike Brown showed any real signs of change. Or if Marv had a couple playoff wins and a slightly less hopeless record against the Steelers. All these things combined leaves very little room for hope with logical people.

(02-14-2018, 02:14 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: I can tell you that I am trying to loose 25 pounds off my spare tire belly, but if you catch me eating at McDonalds every day what kind of conflicting message is that?

Basically, if you always say you need to improve but never actually, you know, improve....why should people believe you? And when fans question that, there comes an onslaught of excuses. It's not unrealistic to wonder what in the world is really going on with this franchise, but for an owner to reply with a long winded excuse (or as you call it: whining) for why we haven't moved that needle is not interacting well with the fans. 

(02-14-2018, 02:18 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: sorry, forgot to answer your question. I highlighted the part when he started to deflect in my post. 

The part where he says that fans see a playoff appearance as the bare minimum?

(02-14-2018, 02:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The part where he says that fans see a playoff appearance as the bare minimum?

Yes, the part where he "says" that. Says. Talks. 

When is the "doing" going to happen?  

(02-14-2018, 02:25 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Basically, if you always say you need to improve but never actually, you know, improve....why should people believe you?

The Bengals have improved dramatically under Marvin Lewis. 

You can argue about how much more they need to improve, but claiming they have not improved is ridiculous.