(08-27-2015, 06:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I was met with a lot of resistance in 2013, when I said Dalton had easily top 10 weapons. I've argued that they've been above average ever since he's been here. Take this receiver ranking and now consider the quality of both his backs, in both rushing and receiving, not to mention the offensive line. What you have is top 5 talent surrounding Andy for this season. There should be zero excuses. And that goes for everyone. Andy, Marvin, Hue, Mike, etc...

All that said, I disagree with a few of these rankings.

The first being, that there is no way our corp is better than Detroit's. Not even possible. Calvin > AJ. Tate > Jones.

Pittsburgh should probably be higher as well. You can easily argue that Brown is better than AJ. At the very least they're equal. I would take Marcus Wheaton, Martavius Bryant, and Lance Moore over Jones, Sanu, and Tate/Moore.

Atlanta is tough. What you're really asking is: Is Marvin Jones better than Roddy White? Doubtful, although White is getting up there in age.

Demayrius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders are a pretty tough duo. I'm not sure we can beat that either.

If I had to rank our corp I'd probably put us in the 4-6 range.

Lots of potential with a little experience and a little production. in 2013 outside of AJ green

(08-27-2015, 03:21 PM)djs7685 Wrote: http://espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13516331/ranking-top-10-receiving-corps-nfl

For those with Insider, there's the link.

I don't pay for it myself, but apparently we're #2 unless my source was lying for some unknown reason.

Colts #1, by the way.

Colts
Bengals
Lions
Falcons
Steelers
Cowboys
Bears
Broncos
Giants
Jets

Updated with full list. I guess this is interesting because I've been told that nobody outside of Cincinnati thinks we have elite receiving targets. I guess at least 1 person outside of the fanbase believes so. I don't know if we're exactly #2, but I do think it's a great group overall and it's good to see us getting some love.

Pretty cool, never would of thought it.

But with Eifert and MLJ healthy it could be imposing on Secondarys no question.

Eifert has the skills to be a major threat in the middle of the field and in the Redzone.

MLJ is fast, can beat teams deep and has great ball adjustment skills. Also is a crisp route runner.

These two guys just need to stay healthy.

When Green is fired up and focused he is a top 5 receiver.

(08-27-2015, 03:23 PM)Element Wrote: Dalton supporters are gonna be mad and deny this article.

Lol why would a Dalton supporter be mad? Dalton did very well in 2013. If the WRs are this good this season and remain healthy Dalton probably wont have a 2014-2015 season again...so I doubt Dalton supporters would get mad and deny anything. Especially when the supporters on these boards know Dalton needs a healthy supporting cast for him to play well.

Lol #2? That's hilarious. Out side of Green we are largely unproven. Lions, Cowboys, Steelers, and Falcons all have better receiving corps than we do. We are definitely top 10, maybe even close to top 5, but #2 is just laughable.

Too bad Dalton can't sit in a pocket and hit an open receiver

(08-28-2015, 08:37 AM)djs7685 Wrote: They've been putting talent around Luck, and he's been doing just fine. I don't know why he would need excuses. He just threw for 500 more yards and accounted for 8 more TDs and 4 less INT (though more fumbles) than Andy's "great year" in 2013. He did so with comparable weapons.

Why would Luck supporters feel bad about their QB taking full advantage of the talent he's been given to work with?

FWIW, Andy's 2013 and Luck's 2014 is what you want to see from young quarterbacks, but both of them need to work on the turnovers and Luck had a bit better of a year statistically. Luck looked much better than Andy if you watch the games, but that's not a slight on Andy as Andrew is probably your next best QB in the league in the very, very near future. I'll be ecstatic with Andy if he turns out to be 3/4 of the QB that Andrew is.

Luck has more numbers than Dalton, but he has WAAAAAAY more turnovers than him. He's had 28 fumbles in his career, and 43 INTs (in the regular season). Not to mention that he has a boatloads of dropped INTs from defenders. In Daltons first 3 years he has had 12 fumbles, and 49 INTs just to compare (and the most dropped INTs in Daltons career is 5).

Luck has:
8 dropped INTs in 2014 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-adjusted-interceptions
5 dropped INTs in 2013 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/adjusted-interceptions-2013
14 dropped INTs in 2012 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/adjusted-interceptions-2012

Here's an article from ESPN about it too. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13464939/why-indianapolis-colts-qb-andrew-luck-lucky-not-throw-more-interceptions.

Now Luck is a really really good QB, and I think he's better than Dalton (I had to say the obvious otherwise you would assume that I think Dalton is better). You just have to remember that he turns the ball over WAAY too much, and if he was in a division where people could actually catch his INTs then he would have over 20 INTs every year.

Just receivers? That is ludicrous. #5 at absolute best.

Is Andy Dalton really that bad?  Is he that bad?  What is going on.... truly....!!!  Something is wrong.... 

(08-28-2015, 03:28 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Lol why would a Dalton supporter be mad? Dalton did very well in 2013. If the WRs are this good this season and remain healthy Dalton probably wont have a 2014-2015 season again...so I doubt Dalton supporters would get mad and deny anything. Especially when the supporters on these boards know Dalton needs a healthy supporting cast for him to play well.

Exactly this. We have the weapons for Andy to succeed. I definitely think he rebounds this year because of it.

We should all be happy about that. No agenda's here. 

(08-28-2015, 09:50 AM)PhilHos Wrote: I'm not talking about high balls, because, yeah, there were. Heck, even the one dump off pass to Gio was too high. I'm talking about passes where he hung the receiver out to dry (meaning, the dude was liable to get his block knocked off). The one to Eifert was one, thoughit was pretty much on target and would've resluted in a TD or the ball at the goalline. I don't remember any others. I'm not saying there weren't; only that I don't remember and I was hoping you would and could list them so those who would be so inclined can't claim it happened more than it actually did.

The one to Eifert was a pretty good throw.  Eifert was just unlucky enough to have two guys converge on him.  Could the throw have maybe gotten there sooner?  Would have been better if it had.  All in all, more a good play by the defense than anything else.

I would say top 5 but number 2 might be a bit high.

its not daltons weapons that concern me, it's keeping him upright in the pocket!

(08-28-2015, 05:21 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Luck has more numbers than Dalton, but he has WAAAAAAY more turnovers than him. He's had 28 fumbles in his career, and 43 INTs (in the regular season). Not to mention that he has a boatloads of dropped INTs from defenders. In Daltons first 3 years he has had 12 fumbles, and 49 INTs just to compare (and the most dropped INTs in Daltons career is 5).

Luck has:
8 dropped INTs in 2014 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-adjusted-interceptions
5 dropped INTs in 2013 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/adjusted-interceptions-2013
14 dropped INTs in 2012 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/adjusted-interceptions-2012

Here's an article from ESPN about it too. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13464939/why-indianapolis-colts-qb-andrew-luck-lucky-not-throw-more-interceptions.

Now Luck is a really really good QB, and I think he's better than Dalton (I had to say the obvious otherwise you would assume that I think Dalton is better). You just have to remember that he turns the ball over WAAY too much, and if he was in a division where people could actually catch his INTs then he would have over 20 INTs every year.

(08-27-2015, 06:25 PM)Wes Mantooth Wrote: I was met with a lot of resistance in 2013, when I said Dalton had easily top 10 weapons.  I've argued that they've been above average ever since he's been here.  Take this receiver ranking and now consider the quality of both his backs, in both rushing and receiving, not to mention the offensive line.  What you have is top 5 talent surrounding Andy for this season.  There should be zero excuses.  And that goes for everyone.  Andy, Marvin, Hue, Mike, etc...

All that said, I disagree with a few of these rankings.

The first being, that there is no way our corp is better than Detroit's.  Not even possible.  Calvin > AJ.  Tate > Jones.

Pittsburgh should probably be higher as well.  You can easily argue that Brown is better than AJ.  At the very least they're equal.  I would take Marcus Wheaton, Martavius Bryant, and Lance Moore over Jones, Sanu, and Tate/Moore.

Atlanta is tough.  What you're really asking is:  Is Marvin Jones better than Roddy White?  Doubtful, although White is getting up there in age.

Demayrius Thomas and Emmanuel Sanders are a pretty tough duo.  I'm not sure we can beat that either.

If I had to rank our corp I'd probably put us in the 4-6 range.

I would agree with this, no excuses this year.  I generally lean to the side of Dalton supporter, only because I realize just how hard it is to find a starting QB in the NFL.  Few elite so the rest are average.  But with this team, and if they stay healthy, there should be no excuses for Dalton not to have a good year.  Will it relate to wins in a season with a very difficult schedule, who knows, depends on a lot of other things, like good defense, turnovers, etc..  But if he doesn't get it done with a healthy team it might just be the time for the Bengals to start looking elsewhere - and that might just be #5 currently holding the clip board.

(08-28-2015, 05:21 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Luck has more numbers than Dalton, but he has WAAAAAAY more turnovers than him. He's had 28 fumbles in his career, and 43 INTs (in the regular season). Not to mention that he has a boatloads of dropped INTs from defenders. In Daltons first 3 years he has had 12 fumbles, and 49 INTs just to compare (and the most dropped INTs in Daltons career is 5).

Luck has:
8 dropped INTs in 2014 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-adjusted-interceptions
5 dropped INTs in 2013 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/adjusted-interceptions-2013
14 dropped INTs in 2012 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/adjusted-interceptions-2012

Here's an article from ESPN about it too. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13464939/why-indianapolis-colts-qb-andrew-luck-lucky-not-throw-more-interceptions.

Now Luck is a really really good QB, and I think he's better than Dalton (I had to say the obvious otherwise you would assume that I think Dalton is better). You just have to remember that he turns the ball over WAAY too much, and if he was in a division where people could actually catch his INTs then he would have over 20 INTs every year.

shhh. Bad stats and mistakes from elites or future elites aren't supposed to exist in the universe remember?

(08-28-2015, 05:21 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Luck has more numbers than Dalton, but he has WAAAAAAY more turnovers than him. He's had 28 fumbles in his career, and 43 INTs (in the regular season). Not to mention that he has a boatloads of dropped INTs from defenders. In Daltons first 3 years he has had 12 fumbles, and 49 INTs just to compare (and the most dropped INTs in Daltons career is 5).

Luck has:
8 dropped INTs in 2014 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2015/2014-adjusted-interceptions
5 dropped INTs in 2013 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2014/adjusted-interceptions-2013
14 dropped INTs in 2012 http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/adjusted-interceptions-2012

Here's an article from ESPN about it too. http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/insider/story/_/id/13464939/why-indianapolis-colts-qb-andrew-luck-lucky-not-throw-more-interceptions.

Now Luck is a really really good QB, and I think he's better than Dalton (I had to say the obvious otherwise you would assume that I think Dalton is better). You just have to remember that he turns the ball over WAAY too much, and if he was in a division where people could actually catch his INTs then he would have over 20 INTs every year.

You do realize that the links you provided prove that with the Adj. Int % Luck outperforms Dalton? I guess I am missing the point you wanted to make. 

2012 - Dalton 3.0% vs. Luck 2.9%
2013 - Dalton 3.6% vs. Luck 2.4%
2014 - Dalton - 4.4% vs. Luck 3.7%

(08-27-2015, 06:53 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote:
Lions: Golden Tate had 1331 yards last year and he's a capable #1 on his own. Tate is so much better than Sanu and MLJ that's it's ridiculous. Calvin is still better than AJ. Ebron has as much potential as Eifert. Pettigrew is more experienced than our backup TE's.

Falcons: I can see it. AJ is better than Julio, IMO. Their best TE is Tamme. Roddy is declining.

Steelers: Na. You have to say that Brown is at least equal to AJ at this point. Wheaton and Bryant are at least equal to Sanu and MLJ. I actually like them a bit more. Heath Miller > Eifert at this point.

Cowboys: Debatable. Dez and AJ are about as equal as it gets. Williams is right there with Sanu or MLJ. Witten is better than Eifert. 

Broncos: DT and AJ are close. Sanders is a far better #2 than anything we have. Owen Daniels is still serviceable. 

Giants: Beckham + Cruz will be fun to watch. Reuben Randle "only" had 938 yards last year. Preston Parker had over 400 yards. Their TE (Larry Donnell) had 623 yards. Honestly, I think this may be the best group of receivers in the NFL.


Honestly, I'd put us behind the Giants, Colts, Steelers, and maybe the Cowboys and Broncos. So 5th or 6th sounds about right. I would've put the Bears and Packers ahead of us before the injuries to Kevin White and Jordy Nelson.

Fwiw, the Titans have one of the deepest WR groups with Kendall Wright, Harry Douglas, Hakeem Nicks, Justin Hunter, Dorial Green-Beckham and Jacoby Ford. No true studs yet, but that's one deep depth chart.

I feel like you are under estimating MLJ a little bit but cant argue your points.

(08-29-2015, 02:59 PM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: You do realize that the links you provided prove that with the Adj. Int % Luck outperforms Dalton? I guess I am missing the point you wanted to make. 

2012 - Dalton 3.0% vs. Luck 2.9%
2013 - Dalton 3.6% vs. Luck 2.4%
2014 - Dalton - 4.4% vs. Luck 3.7%

In 2012 luck had 4.8%. Luck still has more turnovers than Dalton. You have to add in all the fumbles that he's had (which is 16 more fumbles in their first 3 years).

(08-29-2015, 05:57 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: In 2012 luck had 4.8%. Luck still has more turnovers than Dalton. You have to add in all the fumbles that he's had (which is 16 more fumbles in their first 3 years).

He embarrassed the Bengals twice last year. Of course, that must have just been luck.

(08-29-2015, 07:04 PM)BengalChris Wrote: He embarrassed the Bengals twice last year. Of course, that must have just been luck.

It had nothing to do with the fact we had everyone hurt right? Just ignore that Sanu was our #1 receiver that game, and Hill wasn't the starter yet in the first one. In the second game it was the same, but even more injuries with Gresham out. I don't like Gresham, but at least he's a good blocker. Gresham is better than a TE that just came from working in a car dealership.