(04-11-2018, 08:00 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Also if westerman could play center that would be huge, you could draft Wynn then and put him at guard . But that would also be risky. I'd love to pick up another star on defense though. Or even draft Lamar Jackson or Rudolph ( I know that won't happen)

No way anyone on our current roster can start/play at center, and do the job that (at least) most of us think we need/want to see. IF Westerman has the ability to do it, I doubt Pollack has enough time to determine that before the draft. Center, RG, and RT are wide open for improvement over what we finished with last year, but at least we have a few that might give us decent snaps at RG. And that's possibly not even a sure thing in Pollack's eyes. There wasn't anyone on our line last year whose play shouted "I'm what you need to get to the promised land". And that's where I'd like the whole lot of us get to - this year!

(04-11-2018, 07:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I know what you're getting at.  Westerman and Redmond did look good, at the end of the year.  Do you ever wonder why that is?  I mean, they didn't win any starting jobs in camp.

I call it "fresh legs syndrome".  It's when a player comes off the bench, late in the season and looks really good.  Could the reason for that be, because the guy coming off the bench is totally fresh, and the guys he's playing against have been beaten up from playing all year?  Heck, just look at Hopkins.  He discovered that it was much tougher to be the man, and hold the position, than it is to come off the bench and look good in spot duty.

If those guys really were any good, they would have displaced a starter in camp.

Hmm... Sounds to me like a strategy that could help later in the year.

I've actually wondered why more teams don't use more of an offensive line rotation that's similar to what a lot of them do with their defensive lines.

And before someone says it, the defensive lines have to be familiar with the person next to them too. These are professionals after all.

(04-11-2018, 08:00 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Also if westerman could play center that would be huge, you could draft Wynn then and put him at guard . But that would also be risky. I'd love to pick up another star on defense though. Or even draft Lamar Jackson or Rudolph ( I know that won't happen)

Would be sweet to get Jackson or Rudolph... with a comp pick. 

(04-11-2018, 11:00 PM)Mer Wrote: I've actually wondered why more teams don't use more of an offensive line rotation that's similar to what a lot of them do with their defensive lines.

And before someone says it, the defensive lines have to be familiar with the person next to them too. These are professionals after all.

didnt we try this and it failed misserably...

(04-12-2018, 12:51 AM)ah5 Wrote: didnt we try this and it failed misserably...

If you're referring to the Dennis Rolland experiment, no we haven't. I'm talking about a true rotation. Now obviously you'd want your best group to play the majority of the snaps and you'd have to have 10 average to great lineman. I'd rather have an average group with fresh legs than a good group with tired legs. Yes, great would be best, but when was the last time we had that? Willie, Braham, and Levi?

(04-11-2018, 06:04 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: We don't need guards?? I thought westerman and Redmond both looked good when they finally got time. We had a good ypc even with Bodine in there and boling at left tackle and no deep threats besides green. All I hear is take Wynn take Hernandez . I'm more worried about right tackle and center. And they will most likely just put Fisher at right tackle again anyway. Which I'm fine with we don't have to have the best o line in the league all of the sudden after the worst lol.

With you 100%.  It is not a slight to Wynn or Hernandez, but I like what I saw out of Westerman and Redmond.  RT isn't even as big a need since they brought in Hart for insurance behind Fisher (although I would love Orlando Brown if he slipped all the way to the third round, which will never happen).

Center is a huge need, but I still don't see them taking one at #21.  They could get a first round center if they took a trade and slide back toward the end of Rd 1, but I think there are going to be plenty of really intriguing players there at#21.  A LB or DE?  Or even a guy like Vea could fall in their lap. 

The other need that is much more glaring than Guard is LB.  They really need two of them.  One that can be a MLB (Vander Esche?) and one that projects as an OLB (Shaw Griffin?  In the third?).

The point I have tried to make before was that our oline was probably worse in 2016 than it was in 2017 and that was with Zeitler at RG.  He had a turd at center and a turd at RT so it didn't really matter what guard we had there.  Those spots will help the entire offensive line when they are addressed (C and RT).

I drool at the prospect of getting a top prospect like Vander Esche, a C like Ragnow, a RT like Brown and a LB like Griffin.  Although the world has dumped all over Brown, I still like him and hope everyone does pass on him.  And Griffin is so much more than a great story.  I think I heard he is one of four players all time to get 10 sacks and 10 passes defensed?  Or something like that.  The kid plays with his hair on fire and I would give anything to have a speedy LB with his attitude on our team.  He is the ONLY draft pick that would make me go buy his jersey day 1.

(04-11-2018, 07:21 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I know what you're getting at.  Westerman and Redmond did look good, at the end of the year.  Do you ever wonder why that is?  I mean, they didn't win any starting jobs in camp.

I call it "fresh legs syndrome".  It's when a player comes off the bench, late in the season and looks really good.  Could the reason for that be, because the guy coming off the bench is totally fresh, and the guys he's playing against have been beaten up from playing all year?  Heck, just look at Hopkins.  He discovered that it was much tougher to be the man, and hold the position, than it is to come off the bench and look good in spot duty.

If those guys really were any good, they would have displaced a starter in camp.

Disagree.  Maybe there is some truth to the "fresh legs" you referred to, but how can they prove themselves if they never get on the field?  Both blew people up in preseason, but never got to start over the incredibly below average Hopkins.  Redmond is a beast now, and is supposedly our strongest lineman.  Westerman looked just bigger than everyone else out there and had an attitude to match.  

For another example, have you ever heard that week 2 is the worst week for any player in the NFL?  The soreness after the first game is incredible.  Well, Redmond and Westerman had that to deal with at the end of the season and they still played very well in Lazor's offense.  With a line that looks like:  Glenn, Boling, Price/Ragnow, Westerman, Fisher/Hart, I could see the offensive line going from a weakness to a strength overnight.  I am still a little leary on RT and would love to see Orlando Brown in the 3rd.

(04-11-2018, 06:28 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: I like wynn but they say he's too shortish to be a starting tackle I do like how he's versatile and good in run blocking. But Is he really starting year 1? I don't see it. Who knows when he would get in there.

Geno was too short to be a franchise DT.

(04-12-2018, 08:35 AM)Mer Wrote: If you're referring to the Dennis Rolland experiment, no we haven't. I'm takital about a true rotation. Now obviously you'd want your best group to play the majority of the snaps and you'd have to have 10 average to great lineman. I'd rather have an average group with fresh legs than a good group with tired legs. Yes, great would be best, but when was the last time we had that? Willie, Braham, and Levi?

???

'11: Whitworth, 'dre, Bobbie
'12: Whitworth, Boling, Zeitler, 'dre
'13: Whitworth, Boling, Zeitler, 'dre

Absolutely superb lines.

Great post, question, and thread....

Lots of mocks have the Bengals going G in the first. I, personally, I feel that this is a smoke screen and that, NO, the Bengals do not need a guard. I think their current roster actually leaves them G rich and relatively young.

Guards/Tweeners on current roster: Westerman, Redmond, Fischer, Ogb, Hopkins

In general, guard is NOT a premium line position and is pretty much a plug and play spot. Joe Thuney, for example, was a 3rd round pick for NE and is a stud. Lots of mid/late round interior line picks turn out to be outstanding players. I cannot see the Bengals going G with their current roster makeup. Westerman had a very good grade on him and played really well last season when given a chance. There's zero reason to go guard with a high pick, especially with higher profile guys at impact position coming up for contract...

RT, DE, TE, C (I list C because, frankly the Bengals have only one career backup currently on the roster at that spot), S, are all spots where the Bengals could use some youth and depth to develop along with some expiring contracts.

This draft I could see them being very active trading for extra picks into the 2nd and 3rd rounds if possible. That's where the heart of this draft is. The Bengals are YOUNG at a lot of spots and all 11 draft picks will NOT make the team. I think they trade out of the 1st for extra 2nd and 3rds and really maneuver around. There are a lot of players that fit them perfectly and at the right positions in this draft. G is not going to be one of them.

(04-12-2018, 10:13 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Great post, question, and thread....

Lots of mocks have the Bengals going G in the first. I, personally, I feel that this is a smoke screen and that, NO, the Bengals do not need a guard. I think their current roster actually leaves them G rich and relatively young.

Guards/Tweeners on current roster: Westerman, Redmond, Fischer, Ogb, Hopkins

In general, guard is NOT a premium line position and is pretty much a plug and play spot. Joe Thuney, for example, was a 3rd round pick for NE and is a stud. Lots of mid/late round interior line picks turn out to be outstanding players. I cannot see the Bengals going G with their current roster makeup. Westerman had a very good grade on him and played really well last season when given a chance. There's zero reason to go guard with a high pick, especially with higher profile guys at impact position coming up for contract...

RT, DE, TE, C (I list C because, frankly the Bengals have only one career backup currently on the roster at that spot), S, are all spots where the Bengals could use some youth and depth to develop along with some expiring contracts.

This draft I could see them being very active trading for extra picks into the 2nd and 3rd rounds if possible. That's where the heart of this draft is. The Bengals are YOUNG at a lot of spots and all 11 draft picks will NOT make the team. I think they trade out of the 1st for extra 2nd and 3rds and really maneuver around. There are a lot of players that fit them perfectly and at the right positions in this draft. G is not going to be one of them.

Just imagine this I know people would throw a fit. But a line of Glenn boling westerman Redmond Orlando brown ,sounds like a good line to me if westerman could actually play center. Maybe take a Bradley Bozeman 4th round or 5th to groom. 

(04-12-2018, 10:13 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Great post, question, and thread....

Lots of mocks have the Bengals going G in the first. I, personally, I feel that this is a smoke screen and that, NO, the Bengals do not need a guard. I think their current roster actually leaves them G rich and relatively young.

Guards/Tweeners on current roster: Westerman, Redmond, Fischer, Ogb, Hopkins

In general, guard is NOT a premium line position and is pretty much a plug and play spot. Joe Thuney, for example, was a 3rd round pick for NE and is a stud. Lots of mid/late round interior line picks turn out to be outstanding players. I cannot see the Bengals going G with their current roster makeup. Westerman had a very good grade on him and played really well last season when given a chance. There's zero reason to go guard with a high pick, especially with higher profile guys at impact position coming up for contract...

RT, DE, TE, C (I list C because, frankly the Bengals have only one career backup currently on the roster at that spot), S, are all spots where the Bengals could use some youth and depth to develop along with some expiring contracts.

This draft I could see them being very active trading for extra picks into the 2nd and 3rd rounds if possible. That's where the heart of this draft is. The Bengals are YOUNG at a lot of spots and all 11 draft picks will NOT make the team. I think they trade out of the 1st for extra 2nd and 3rds and really maneuver around. There are a lot of players that fit them perfectly and at the right positions in this draft. G is not going to be one of them.

One problem.....Ogbuehi isn't fit to play waterboy....and Fisher hasn't shown much more.  Ogbuehi doesn't have the mentality to play offensive line at this level, PERIOD.

Center has been the achilles heel of this team since Braham left.  Arthur Blank finally conceded that center was a position of value....seemed to work well for him.  I hope Mike Brown was watching.

(04-12-2018, 12:15 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Just imagine this I know people would throw a fit. But a line of Glenn boling westerman Redmond Orlando brown ,sounds like a good line to me if westerman could actually play center. Maybe take a Bradley Bozeman 4th round or 5th to groom. 

I agree with most of what you've said, but the only problem is sample size.  Lots of guys look like world beaters at the end of the season, then wind up on the pine the very next season.  I might pass on a guard....but there's no way I let a good Center pass me by.  If one of the top ranked G prospects is there when you draft, I'd take them too.  Go back and watch the 2005 team, and see what a top notch oline across the board will get you.  Look at Dallas.

(04-12-2018, 10:13 AM)PDub80 Wrote: Great post, question, and thread....

Lots of mocks have the Bengals going G in the first. I, personally, I feel that this is a smoke screen and that, NO, the Bengals do not need a guard. I think their current roster actually leaves them G rich and relatively young.

Guards/Tweeners on current roster: Westerman, Redmond, Fischer, Ogb, Hopkins

In general, guard is NOT a premium line position and is pretty much a plug and play spot. Joe Thuney, for example, was a 3rd round pick for NE and is a stud. Lots of mid/late round interior line picks turn out to be outstanding players. I cannot see the Bengals going G with their current roster makeup. Westerman had a very good grade on him and played really well last season when given a chance. There's zero reason to go guard with a high pick, especially with higher profile guys at impact position coming up for contract...

RT, DE, TE, C (I list C because, frankly the Bengals have only one career backup currently on the roster at that spot), S, are all spots where the Bengals could use some youth and depth to develop along with some expiring contracts.

This draft I could see them being very active trading for extra picks into the 2nd and 3rd rounds if possible. That's where the heart of this draft is. The Bengals are YOUNG at a lot of spots and all 11 draft picks will NOT make the team. I think they trade out of the 1st for extra 2nd and 3rds and really maneuver around. There are a lot of players that fit them perfectly and at the right positions in this draft. G is not going to be one of them.

Of the needed areas you mentioned above, Right Tackle and Center keep jumping to the forefront in my mind as being most Critical.

There are no guarantees that Jake Fisher will not have additional Heart problems or simply take a year to strengthen back up from his heart surgery. Andre Smith is gone.

Right now, I am for Mike McGlinchey in round 1 and Frank Ragnow in round 2.  (Jake Fisher can then compete at Guard with the others)

I want an O-line Overhaul since it was the Achilles heal of the team last year, with Tackle and Center very early.

Gotta flat out fix it.



 

(04-11-2018, 06:04 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: We don't need guards?? I thought westerman and Redmond both looked good when they finally got time. We had a good ypc even with Bodine in there and boling at left tackle and no deep threats besides green. All I hear is take Wynn take Hernandez . I'm more worried about right tackle and center. And they will most likely just put Fisher at right tackle again anyway. Which I'm fine with we don't have to have the best o line in the league all of the sudden after the worst lol.

No, you are not the only one who thinks that. Westerman has impressed me everytime i have watched him play and Redmond
just needed to pump the weights and get into his body. Both of these guys could be really good, it is just a short span to really
judge from i think is the argument for Hernandez and he is a road grading run blocker.

Wynn on the other hand can play every position on the O-line and i think could be about the safest pick in the Draft. He has
probably the best feet and hands in the entire draft and is the most pro ready besides Quenton Nelson. The way Wynn can
adjust is just rare, he is very smart, has longer arms than people say and is just solid in every aspect. Would be great insurance
all across the Line.

(04-12-2018, 01:19 PM)depthchart Wrote: Of the needed areas you mentioned above, Right Tackle and Center keep jumping to the forefront in my mind as being most Critical.

There are no guarantees that Jake Fisher will not have additional Heart problems or simply take a year to strengthen back up from his heart surgery. Andre Smith is gone.

Right now, I am for Mike McGlinchey in round 1 and Frank Ragnow in round 2.  (Jake Fisher can then compete at Guard with the others)

I want an O-line Overhaul since it was the Achilles heal of the team last year, with Tackle and Center very early.

Gotta flat out fix it.



 

I agree with you, but with a twist.

My Stone cold lead pipe lock Mock Draft will be posted at the end of next week. Be on the look out for it! In the mean time, a little preview....

I think the Bengals take RT Brown Jr and DE Arden Key in the first 2 rounds. They perfectly fit who the Bengals are and what they like.

Brown Jr is a (somehow) BIGGER version of Andre Smith and Arden Key is nearly identical to Dunlap. All the way down to character and work ethic knocks coming out of college.

Now, before we get all crazy about a C in the first 2 rounds, remember that Pat Elflein was the #1 rated center in the draft last year. He lasted into the 3rd round at #70 over all. I think the Bengals make several trades, have no desire to keep all of their draft picks - they don't have room - and will maneuver out of the first (or to the back of it) and higher up in the 3rd and 2nd to be able to get 4 higher mid round, high quality guys. I predict: RT, DE, C, and TE. All by the end of the 3rd.

(04-12-2018, 05:36 PM)PDub80 Wrote: maneuver out of the first (or to the back of it) and higher up in the 3rd and 2nd to be able to get 4 higher mid round, high quality guys. I predict: RT, DE, C, and TE. All by the end of the 3rd.

Replace one of the o-linemen with a LB and I think this would be a great plan.

Westerman set record at the combine with his lifts. He continues to work out in the off season. His strength is in his legs look at the size of his thighs and butt. He is not caring a lot, if any, fat, check his belly. I have followed him all along, I think P. A. favored his higher picks, he stuck with them no matter what. I believe if given the chance to play he will be a pro bowler. He has not played center.

(04-12-2018, 01:16 PM)Wyche Wrote: I agree with most of what you've said, but the only problem is sample size.  Lots of guys look like world beaters at the end of the season, then wind up on the pine the very next season.  I might pass on a guard....but there's no way I let a good Center pass me by.  If one of the top ranked G prospects is there when you draft, I'd take them too.  Go back and watch the 2005 team, and see what a top notch oline across the board will get you.  Look at Dallas.

Yes I know I loved that o line but we still didn't get past the first round,neither did Dallas ironically.  I do like Wynn like I said but my question is ,is he big enough for right tackle,if not I just don't see guard a big need with the two guys I've grown to like,even lapham was saying how them two moved bodies. They both did good enough for me. Also you got Fisher who also could play guard if you switched him ,just alot of lineman can play guard but not tackle. I also like Connor Williams but would he be a right tackle I'm not seeing it. He's probably a left tackle or guard himself. I picture a right tackle being a big guy like Willie Anderson. That's why I actually like Orlando brown. Nobody can move him in pass protection. I do agree center needs upgraded ,I just heard he was projected to be a center coming to us and if he could play that,that makes a spot for Redmond too.

Maybe I'd be happy just to trade back farther and pick up an extra pick. Then they can draft their center and grab Orlando brown back to back.plus you get an extra pick. The only first rounders I really like Is Ronnie Harrison and Wynn. I like Hernandez but I just don't consider guard that much of a need.

(04-12-2018, 06:37 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Yes I know I loved that o line but we still didn't get past the first round,neither did Dallas ironically.  I do like Wynn like I said but my question is ,is he big enough for right tackle,if not I just don't see guard a big need with the two guys I've grown to like,even lapham was saying how them two moved bodies. They both did good enough for me. Also you got Fisher who also could play guard if you switched him ,just alot of lineman can play guard but not tackle. I also like Connor Williams but would he be a right tackle I'm not seeing it. He's probably a left tackle or guard himself. I picture a right tackle being a big guy like Willie Anderson. That's why I actually like Orlando brown. Nobody can move him in pass protection. I do agree center needs upgraded ,I just heard he was projected to be a center coming to us and if he could play that,that makes a spot for Redmond too.

Maybe I'd be happy just to trade back farther and pick up an extra pick. Then they can draft their center and grab Orlando brown back to back.plus you get an extra pick. The only first rounders I really like Is Ronnie Harrison and Wynn. I like Hernandez but I just don't consider guard that much of a need.

I asked this in my mock draft, why do people feel that a tackle has to be tall? Wynn is 6'3", not exactly short..  He doesn't have t-rex arms either.