(04-21-2018, 09:14 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I haven't given up on Fisher, but I'm not willing to bet the farm he works out either.

My feeling exactly. Fisher still has a chance, based on what we've seen.  Ced has given no indication that he can play in the NFL.  And I will never understand all the love for Orlando Brown I see on here. To me he looks like a big, very strong, but plodding tackle, with no chance to stop the outside speed rush.

(04-21-2018, 03:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Everyone it the draft forum and in here are talking about how we must get a tackle early. I'm not sure there is a tackle in this draft that is a better prospect than Jake Fisher. Before going down with A-fib Jake was having a mediocre season at RT (55 of 83) but he was learning. One must also wonder did his heart condition affect his play. He did say he had to get treated for a "supersonic" heart rate in an early season workout.

I for one am willing to give Jake first crack at RT (who knows what Pollack can do for him Doug Free was garbage at RT before Pollack got a hold of him) and focus on the interior of our oline.

Great point about Pollack and Doug Free.  I will add that Free suddenly became a much better player when he had a solid guard next to him as well as a dominant center.  Jake is our starting RT until someone beats him out of the job, and he is just turning 25 tomorrow (Happy Birthday!).  A lot of guys don't really have their "NFL sand" until roughly that age.  Hopefully, he fulfills his massive potential and is our rock at RT for years to come.

I also like his demeanor way more than that of Ced the marshmellow.  

(04-21-2018, 04:29 PM)Okeana Wrote: i agree 100%.  pollack also may shape these guys up.  Westerman and Redmond are two of my front runners to rise this year.

With you on Westerman and Redmond.  Guard isn't the need that many project it to be....the Center is the gaping hole right now.  Get Price or Ragnow and our offensive line really takes shape. 

That being said, I STILL don't see the Bengals taking the Center at #21.  If someone calls (Hello, Altanta?  New England?) with a great deal to move up to #21 and we can get the Center at the end of Rd 1 AND an additional 2nd rounder (maybe we have to throw in one of our 5th rounders to equal the point value, but I would really only slide if we got a 2nd rounder) then I would be thrilled with that scenario.

I do NOT want Kolton Miller.  Just because he tested well at the combine doesn't mean his tape is false.  Dude just doesn't have the instincts and skills to play OT in the NFL, IMHO.  At least not as a starter.

There's little doubt that Fisher's play has not what we had hoped for to date, but my main point was that there is arguably no OT prospect in this draft that is as good of a prospect as Fish was when he came out. Fish's draft class has a bunch of OT prospects and 5 went in the first RD. If Fish was coming out this year there's a very good change he would be the top OT prospect in the draft.
We must also remember that they've had Fish take snaps at every position on the offense except QB/WR. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities that Fish is our next starting RG or C

(04-22-2018, 10:58 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There's little doubt that Fisher's play has not what we had hoped for to date, but my main point was that there is arguably no OT prospect in this draft that is as good of a prospect as Fish was when he came out. Fish's draft class has a bunch of OT prospects and 5 went in the first RD. If Fish was coming out this year there's a very good change he would be the top OT prospect in the draft.
We must also remember that they've had Fish take snaps at every position on the offense except QB/WR. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities that Fish is our next starting RG or C

I've wondered about the possibility of moving Fisher in to RG ? since he does seem to struggle in space outside.

(04-21-2018, 09:59 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Stringer didn't have "heart problems", he died from heat stroke and the lightest he ever was in his pro career was 335. I see no similarity here. 

Yep, my mistake.

(04-21-2018, 11:56 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I haven't given up on Fisher yet but he's going into his 4th year and still hasn't proven he's is a quality stating tackle. 

This is a valid point.  Any high hopes for Fisher are still just "hopes".  Fisher did not look that good in '16 when he finally got the chance to play at the end of the year.  I feel like his development was stunted by playing multiple positions, but that was the end of his second full season.

Coming into '17 he was considered the starting RT and he supposedly gained weight and changed his diet.  But here is a very ominus comment from August of last year https://www.cincyjungle.com/2017/8/9/16107080/improvement-jake-fisher-year-3

"Fisher has been dieting and changed his eating habits with foods like bison, avocado (for electrolytes), steak, potatoes, carrots and corn heavily incorporated in his diet. Additionally, he’s cut out medications, which he believes has helped strengthen his mind and body, as well as his immune system."


Fisher did not look very impressive in '17, but it could have been due to his health problems.  However if he has to go back to those medications he may always struggle with maintaining the stength to play RT.

The Bengals plan of living and dying with the draft can be thrown completely off the rails with just one epic failure draft.  If Fisher doesn't produce then that means Tyler Kroft was the best player from a draft where we had 6 picks in the first four rounds.

(04-22-2018, 02:07 AM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I’ll say one thing, I’ve never seen a coach come in with this much hype. If he’s half of the savior that this board seems to think he is, we should have a top 5 line in a couple of years.

He will have to add a top Center to do so that is for sure.

TJ Johnson and Trey Hopkins i have little hope for Pollack turning into Probowlers no matter how
good Pollack has done with guys like Doug Free. Pollack will need atleast one of the top 3 Centers
to turn this into a top 5 line in a couple of years.

Yeah if mcglinchey isn't there ,I bet they wait till round 3-5 to take a ot

(04-21-2018, 03:08 PM)bfine32 Wrote: Everyone it the draft forum and in here are talking about how we must get a tackle early. I'm not sure there is a tackle in this draft that is a better prospect than Jake Fisher. Before going down with A-fib Jake was having a mediocre season at RT (55 of 83) but he was learning. One must also wonder did his heart condition affect his play. He did say he had to get treated for a "supersonic" heart rate in an early season workout.

I for one am willing to give Jake first crack at RT (who knows what Pollack can do for him Doug Free was garbage at RT before Pollack got a hold of him) and focus on the interior of our oline.

Fisher might be good enough to be a good starting RT.

However, you've given him a grade of mediocre before going down last year, which was his 3rd year.

Personally, I'd like to see us draft a OT early as a backup on either the right or left side or someone who is better than Fisher to start on the right side. We are one injury away from Ogbuehi being our starting LT again and that's just something that I don't see working out very well.

(04-22-2018, 07:41 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Fisher might be good enough to be a good starting RT.

However, you've given him a grade of mediocre before going down last year, which was his 3rd year.

Personally, I'd like to see us draft a OT early as a backup on either the right or left side or someone who is better than Fisher to start on the right side. We are one injury away from Ogbuehi being our starting LT again and that's just something that I don't see working out very well.

I can tell that you're concerned about having adequate supply of quality Tackles on the roster, with good reason.  Don't forget that after the draft, and again as Preseason winds down, there will be many experienced players looking for work.  Guys that can still play, but were supplanted by younger players on a rookie rate of pay.

(04-22-2018, 10:58 AM)bfine32 Wrote: There's little doubt that Fisher's play has not what we had hoped for to date, but my main point was that there is arguably no OT prospect in this draft that is as good of a prospect as Fish was when he came out. Fish's draft class has a bunch of OT prospects and 5 went in the first RD. If Fish was coming out this year there's a very good change he would be the top OT prospect in the draft.
We must also remember that they've had Fish take snaps at every position on the offense except QB/WR. It is not beyond the realm of possibilities that Fish is our next starting RG or C

Good analyss, especially emphasizing the first part. 

(04-22-2018, 07:50 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I can tell that you're concerned about having adequate supply of quality Tackles on the roster, with good reason.  Don't forget that after the draft, and again as Preseason winds down, there will be many experienced players looking for work.  Guys that can still play, but were supplanted by younger players on a rookie rate of pay.

I figure that if we draft a tackle early, say first 3 rounds, then Ogbuehi will be let go given that we'd have Glenn, Fisher, Hart and draft pick and we'd keep 4 OTs on the 53 man roster.

The safest place for Ogbuehi is on another team or out of the league, but not on the Bengals roster.

Of course, may be Pollack can do something with him.

(04-22-2018, 04:21 AM)Thundercloud Wrote: My feeling exactly. Fisher still has a chance, based on what we've seen.  Ced has given no indication that he can play in the NFL.  And I will never understand all the love for Orlando Brown I see on here. To me he looks like a big, very strong, but plodding tackle, with no chance to stop the outside speed rush.

I never said I "love" Brown, but I often like prospects who put out good tape, but slip due to combine numbers. Didn't Brown allow like 1 sack last year? But with his long arms he couldn't throw up 225 many times.

Look at Burfict's combine. Anquan Boldin's. Sometimes guys can just play. If we can get a guy who looked great and slipped for reasons other than his actual play, I'm usually for it.

Like I said though, I'm not ready to throw away Fisher yet. I also wouldn't hand him the job without competition. I don't think he's quite earned that based on his play.

(04-23-2018, 01:46 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I never said I "love" Brown, but I often like prospects who put out good tape, but slip due to combine numbers. Didn't Brown allow like 1 sack last year? But with his long arms he couldn't throw up 225 many times.

Look at Burfict's combine. Anquan Boldin's. Sometimes guys can just play. If we can get a guy who looked great and slipped for reasons other than his actual play, I'm usually for it.

Like I said though, I'm not ready to throw away Fisher yet. I also wouldn't hand him the job without competition. I don't think he's quite earned that based on his play.

It will be interesting to see how far Brown slides but I’m with you I like guys with good tape vs just combine numbers maybe we can get this guy in round 2 or 3 ? My thinking is if mcglinchey isn’t there at 21 we can take one of the top centers in either Daniels, Price and Ragnow. Then get Brown in round 2 to compete with Fisher at RT. Or go safety round 2 and try to get the best available tackle with one of are 3rd round picks ?

I want to believe that Fisher is still a prospect worth considering.

But I'm struggling with it.

According to PFF, he had a decent game vs Buffalo and a decent game vs Pittsburgh, but still ended the season rated 46.2
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/jake-fisher/9486

That just means his other games dragged down the two games he played well.

And then he has heart issues? I mean...who knows how that's going to go? Maurice Hurst is a top 10 talent that may not even be drafted in the first round because he maybe, possibly, perhaps has heart issues.

I don't know how dangerous an irregular heart beat is, but anything that requires heart surgery to repair is probably severe enough to end or jeopardize a career.

I'm all for giving him a chance, but we need to draft an offensive tackle capable of starting. If Fisher is good enough to start, then fine. But between his heart condition as well as his poor play for the last few years (there's a reason he's not been given the starting position outright, even with zero competition), I think it's safe to say OT is a big need this draft.

(04-21-2018, 05:56 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: If he plays as well as i hope he does he becomes a top free agent. Which would make him hard to keep with Cordy getting paid big. I expect him to be the starting RT.

But i want to have have some serious quality backups. Ogbuehi i hope improves to be a decent backup. Rookie tackles havent really been stepping right in and kicking ass. So ideally we get to work with them before plugging in.

Right now are starting tackles have serious health question marks. Hasnt been able to stay healthy since having a kidney removed and coming off a major heart condition.

Im hoping for the best. But we better have a super solid backup plan.

he missed all of last season so he will be an RFA after this next one right?

(04-23-2018, 01:46 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I never said I "love" Brown, but I often like prospects who put out good tape, but slip due to combine numbers. Didn't Brown allow like 1 sack last year? But with his long arms he couldn't throw up 225 many times.

Look at Burfict's combine. Anquan Boldin's. Sometimes guys can just play. If we can get a guy who looked great and slipped for reasons other than his actual play, I'm usually for it.

Like I said though, I'm not ready to throw away Fisher yet. I also wouldn't hand him the job without competition. I don't think he's quite earned that based on his play.

Obg looked good on tape too...

(04-23-2018, 10:00 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Obg looked good on tape too...

That's debatable.

Quote:Cedric Ogbuehi didn't have the senior season he had envisioned when he made the decision to return to school for his senior campaign, despite the fact that he was widely considered a first round draft pick at the time.

Ogbuehi opted to return to school, and hoped to follow in the footsteps of Texas A&M tackles Luke Joeckel and Jake Matthews, making the transition from right to left tackle and seeing his draft stock rise into the top 10.
Unfortunately for Ogbuehi that didn't work out, as he struggled to make the transition to being the blind side protector, and ultimately was flipped back to right tackle before an ACL tear ended his senior year. Fortunately for the Redskins, Ogbuehi's flip back to right tackle and injury could provide them with fantastic value come draft day.

https://www.hogshaven.com/2015/2/14/8039785/hogs-haven-draft-profile-cedric-ogbuehi

Moving to LT after playing RT and guard and being bad there was not a good start to his senior year.
All profiles I can find talk about his athletic potential. Very few mention him actually being good in real time.

(04-23-2018, 09:22 AM)lone bengal Wrote: It will be interesting to see how far Brown slides but I’m with you I like guys with good tape vs just combine numbers maybe we can get this guy in round 2 or 3 ? My thinking is if mcglinchey isn’t there at 21 we can take one of the top centers in either Daniels, Price and Ragnow. Then get Brown in round 2 to compete with Fisher at RT. Or go safety round 2 and try to get the best available tackle with one of are 3rd round picks ?

Selfishly, I would almost rather have the top Center + Brown than McGlinchey + Brown. I've been wanting a top flight Center since Braham left. I mostly agree though. As long as we get a lineman in round one and some value picks later, I'll be good. 

(04-23-2018, 09:38 AM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: I want to believe that Fisher is still a prospect worth considering.

But I'm struggling with it.

According to PFF, he had a decent game vs Buffalo and a decent game vs Pittsburgh, but still ended the season rated 46.2
https://www.profootballfocus.com/nfl/players/jake-fisher/9486

That just means his other games dragged down the two games he played well.

And then he has heart issues? I mean...who knows how that's going to go? Maurice Hurst is a top 10 talent that may not even be drafted in the first round because he maybe, possibly, perhaps has heart issues.

I don't know how dangerous an irregular heart beat is, but anything that requires heart surgery to repair is probably severe enough to end or jeopardize a career.

I'm all for giving him a chance, but we need to draft an offensive tackle capable of starting. If Fisher is good enough to start, then fine. But between his heart condition as well as his poor play for the last few years (there's a reason he's not been given the starting position outright, even with zero competition), I think it's safe to say OT is a big need this draft.

All fair points, and even more reason to hedge our bet with Fisher. Even if healthy, there's questions...and you can't ignore the health concerns, either.

(04-23-2018, 10:00 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Obg looked good on tape too...

Didn't Og give up around 15 sacks in 2 years? Brown allowed 1?

I remember people making excuses for all the sacks Og allowed in college.