(09-08-2015, 11:43 AM)XenoMorph Wrote: Do we think Dalton is Rodgers No...

And dalton has out perform newton thus far in his career.

Yes he has. There's no doubt about that.

Russell Wilson has played better than both of them and was available to all teams in the draft.

At the end of the 2015 season either Dalton and the team will have taken a step forward or not. If they don't, why wouldn't the team look to upgrade its QB (assuming that the QB doesn't step up and play well in the playoffs)?

(09-08-2015, 12:16 PM)whodey4life84 Wrote: Yes a mid 30 year old Steve Smith was a huge weapon. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Smith,_Sr.
Yeah I'll just leave that there. Steve Smith is a good story cuz even I love his fire but he hasnt been a top wr in a looong time. The Panthers have had no legit wrs since cam been there. Ill give you Greg Olsen but that's it. They have had no depth and their rbs have literally been injured every year hes been there. Please tell me off the top of your head who the panthers starting wrs will be this year without google. Lmao you guys are too funny.

Steve Smith, Brandon Lafell, and Greg Olsen have been just as good if not better receivers than Dalton has had. Last year was the only year Cam didn't have all of those guys. Green is better than Smith (Smith was better than Green when Green was a rookie, but Green has been improving while Smith has been on the decline), but every other position Carolina has had better. I just don't see how you can think Cam has had such bad weapons. It's kind of comical to me really. That just tells me you don't think for yourself and only listen to what the media says.

(09-08-2015, 10:36 AM)whodey4life84 Wrote: Dalton will never take us to the Super Bowl. He has reached his ceiling. No he is not gonna magically breakout and become the best QB or a top 5 QB in the league. What you've seen the last 4 years is what you get. 

I've never understood how people think a player after 4 years will stop improving.

Has Dalton reached his ceiling? No. Why, you ask? Well, I'll tell you. Dalton is an average QB. He's an average QB, not because he plays like an average QB in every game. No, he's an average QB because he has good and great games mixed in with some horribly bad games. Taken as a whole, Dalton is average. But, Dalton's biggest issue is his inconsistency. Stop the bad games (or at least minimize his bad games to be average games) and all of a sudden, Dalton's QB rating is going to be in the range that good-great QBs have.

So, the question isn't HAS Dalton reached his ceiling (because he hasn't)? The question is WILL he reach his ceiling (in which he is consistent game in and game out)? The answer to that remains to be seen, but considering that Dalton had a pretty good stretch of consistently good play at the beginning of last season, I think he will.

(09-08-2015, 11:39 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Green didn't play for almost half of the year, and Gresham and Sanu are not that good lol. Gresham has had 6 fumbles the last 2 years, and Sanu had the highest drop % with at least 50 catches. Yeah... that's some great weapons

Green missed 4 starts and part of two other games, not almost half a year.

Green, Sanu, Gresham, Hill and Bernard is still not no weapons and are better than many other QBs had. Doesn't explain anything really. Sure in the playoff game, we had limited options. Doesn't explain the second highest INT to pass attempts ratio Dalton put up last year. Doesn't explain the Cleveland game at all.

The no weapons excuse is just another in a long line of excuses. If someone is spending time making excuses they aren't spending time improving.

(09-08-2015, 12:27 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Yeah, defense certainly played its role in those Raven wins.

Dalton is ok, has a high ceiling and a low floor at the same time.

Can't really pin all the playoff blunders on Dalton or any one player. The coaches really haven't gotten the team prepared well for those games.

However, Dalton wanted to be paid like the face of the franchise. So he, regardless of what anyone else does or doesn't do, must step up and play closer to his ceiling. No more freakin' Cleveland games. The Tampa preseason game was just too close to that Cleveland game to make fans concerned about Dalton's actual improvement this off season.

If Dalton isn't going to step up and lead and be the glue of the team on the field, he doesn't deserve his contract. That's the short and long of it.

So smart guy, since you are discussing contracts, what is Dalton's base salary in 2015?

Is he our top ranked guy (you know face of the franchise) in 2015 base salary?

I suggest you look it up as you will be very surprised how low his base salary is in 2015.

(09-08-2015, 01:15 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Green missed 4 starts and part of two other games, not almost half a year.

Green, Sanu, Gresham, Hill and Bernard is still not no weapons and are better than many other QBs had. Doesn't explain anything really. Sure in the playoff game, we had limited options. Doesn't explain the second highest INT to pass attempts ratio Dalton put up last year. Doesn't explain the Cleveland game at all.

The no weapons excuse is just another in a long line of excuses. If someone is spending time making excuses they aren't spending time improving.

I don't understand why a lot of people try to bring down the entire offense in a poor attempt to make the QB look decent.  They're basically throwing 5 dudes under the bus in order to promote a single guy.  It's like they're Andy Dalton fans first and Bengals fans second.

(09-08-2015, 12:35 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Steve Smith, Brandon Lafell, and Greg Olsen have been just as good if not better receivers than Dalton has had. Last year was the only year Cam didn't have all of those guys. Green is better than Smith (Smith was better than Green when Green was a rookie, but Green has been improving while Smith has been on the decline), but every other position Carolina has had better. I just don't see how you can think Cam has had such bad weapons. It's kind of comical to me really. That just tells me you don't think for yourself and only listen to what the media says.

Greg Olsen since 2012 has more yards and receptions than Sanu and Marvin Jones combined.  

(09-08-2015, 12:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I've never understood how people think a player after 4 years will stop improving.

Has Dalton reached his ceiling? No. Why, you ask? Well, I'll tell you. Dalton is an average QB. He's an average QB, not because he plays like an average QB in every game. No, he's an average QB because he has good and great games mixed in with some horribly bad games. Taken as a whole, Dalton is average. But, Dalton's biggest issue is his inconsistency. Stop the bad games (or at least minimize his bad games to be average games) and all of a sudden, Dalton's QB rating is going to be in the range that good-great QBs have.

So, the question isn't HAS Dalton reached his ceiling (because he hasn't)? The question is WILL he reach his ceiling (in which he is consistent game in and game out)? The answer to that remains to be seen, but considering that Dalton had a pretty good stretch of consistently good play at the beginning of last season, I think he will.

I don't know of a lot of people that say that he can't improve after 4 years.  If he does though, how much will it really be?  Will it be enough to make a big difference and put the team over the top?  How many QBs muddle in mediocrity for 4 years, then suddenly become a great QB?  I just don't think that it's irrational to think that he might be about as good as he'll ever be.

(09-08-2015, 12:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I've never understood how people think a player after 4 years will stop improving.

Has Dalton reached his ceiling? No. Why, you ask? Well, I'll tell you. Dalton is an average QB. He's an average QB, not because he plays like an average QB in every game. No, he's an average QB because he has good and great games mixed in with some horribly bad games. Taken as a whole, Dalton is average. But, Dalton's biggest issue is his inconsistency. Stop the bad games (or at least minimize his bad games to be average games) and all of a sudden, Dalton's QB rating is going to be in the range that good-great QBs have.

So, the question isn't HAS Dalton reached his ceiling (because he hasn't)? The question is WILL he reach his ceiling (in which he is consistent game in and game out)? The answer to that remains to be seen, but considering that Dalton had a pretty good stretch of consistently good play at the beginning of last season, I think he will.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This is spot on. There is no reason to think a 5th year QB is done peaking yet.

Ben R. did not peak until 2 or 3 years ago. He won his first Super Bowl in spite of being an average QB.

Manning kept getting better.

I expect Cam will keep getting better.

But, you will be flamed by the naysayers who gave up on AD so they feel everyone else should also give up on AD.

Below Average QB's don't win player of the month awards in the NFL. A true average NFL QB normally has average highs and average lows, it is rare to be at the top of the mountain for a month and then not perform well to an extreme has AD did against the Browns. But, he has shown me he is very capable so I believe he has room to get better.

(09-08-2015, 01:15 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Green missed 4 starts and part of two other games, not almost half a year.

Green, Sanu, Gresham, Hill and Bernard is still not no weapons and are better than many other QBs had. Doesn't explain anything really. Sure in the playoff game, we had limited options. Doesn't explain the second highest INT to pass attempts ratio Dalton put up last year. Doesn't explain the Cleveland game at all.

The no weapons excuse is just another in a long line of excuses. If someone is spending time making excuses they aren't spending time improving.

6 games is only 2 games away from half of the year, so that's pretty much almost half a year.

Sanu had the highest drop % with at least 50 receptions last year. He's a good #3, but below average as a #2. Gresham isn't even that great. He causes a lot of turnovers, and a lot of penalties that cost us games the last few years. He's a league average TE at the very best. Hill is a great RB, but don't fool yourself with Bernard. Bernard has flashy plays, but a lot of the time he comes up short.

The Bengals weapons were in the bottom half of the league last year, and if you say otherwise you're just fooling yourself.

(09-08-2015, 01:21 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: I don't understand why a lot of people try to bring down the entire offense in a poor attempt to make the QB look decent.  They're basically throwing 5 dudes under the bus in order to promote a single guy.  It's like they're Andy Dalton fans first and Bengals fans second.

Nah they just have common sense to say that when only 2 offensive skilled position players started all year last year. (Dalton, and Sanu).

(09-08-2015, 12:51 PM)PhilHos Wrote: I've never understood how people think a player after 4 years will stop improving.

Has Dalton reached his ceiling? No. Why, you ask? Well, I'll tell you. Dalton is an average QB. He's an average QB, not because he plays like an average QB in every game. No, he's an average QB because he has good and great games mixed in with some horribly bad games. Taken as a whole, Dalton is average. But, Dalton's biggest issue is his inconsistency. Stop the bad games (or at least minimize his bad games to be average games) and all of a sudden, Dalton's QB rating is going to be in the range that good-great QBs have.

So, the question isn't HAS Dalton reached his ceiling (because he hasn't)? The question is WILL he reach his ceiling (in which he is consistent game in and game out)? The answer to that remains to be seen, but considering that Dalton had a pretty good stretch of consistently good play at the beginning of last season, I think he will.

You know, I agree completely.

The question is, how long should we be willing to wait? 5 years (this year)? Is one more year after this enough? How about 10 years? Or 15?

Where should we draw the line?

On the bright side, at least he's not RGIII. :)

(09-08-2015, 01:28 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Nah they just have common sense to say that when only 2 offensive skilled position players started all year last year. (Dalton, and Sanu).

This is not a complete sentence....I keep waiting for the second part.

How many games did Bernard and Hill miss?  Did we at least get to have one of our great RBs starting in there all year?

How many games did Gresham miss? 

Yes, it blows to have Jones and Eifert miss all year and Green to miss 1/4 of it, but lets not pretend like the guy had zero help out there.

(09-08-2015, 01:28 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Nah they just have common sense to say that when only 2 offensive skilled position players started all year last year. (Dalton, and Sanu).

In contrast the Steelers had the majority of their offensive weapons in tact almost all 16 games

Bell missed I game
Brown - missed no games
Wheaton - missed no games
Bryant - missed no games
H. Miller and Spaeth missed no games

Broncos had Thomas and Sanders for all 16 games

So, the teams that were consistently good offensively had their weapons mostly in tact, of course we did not having only 1 position player play all 16 games and that was our 2nd/3rd receiver third year receiver Sanu. I don't call that an excuse, I call it a fact.

(09-08-2015, 01:37 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: This is not a complete sentence....I keep waiting for the second part.

How many games did Bernard and Hill miss?  Did we at least get to have one of our great RBs starting in there all year?

How many games did Gresham miss? 

Yes, it blows to have Jones and Eifert miss all year and Green to miss 1/4 of it, but lets not pretend like the guy had zero help out there.

Hill barely played the first 6 games

Gio missed 3 games I believe
Gresham also missed 3 games
Smith - our 3rd TE also missed the year with Eifert. Our TE's were decimated as were our WR's. Add it up, these 2 position groups Starters) missed more games than they played

(09-08-2015, 01:37 PM)Johnny Cupcakes Wrote: This is not a complete sentence....I keep waiting for the second part.

How many games did Bernard and Hill miss?  Did we at least get to have one of our great RBs starting in there all year?

How many games did Gresham miss? 

Yes, it blows to have Jones and Eifert miss all year and Green to miss 1/4 of it, but lets not pretend like the guy had zero help out there.

Bernard missed 3 games
Hill wasn't the starter until week 9
Gresham missed 2 games
Green missed almost half of the year not 1/4th of it

How is my statement false.

(09-08-2015, 01:36 PM)BengalChris Wrote: You know, I agree completely.

The question is, how long should we be willing to wait? 5 years (this year)? Is one more year after this enough? How about 10 years? Or 15?

Where should we draw the line?

On the bright side, at least he's not RGIII. :)

I would draw the line on the sort of season we had the year prior to him being drafted.  

(09-08-2015, 12:22 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Steve Smith has been a good WR. You can't blame him for not doing very well when he was in Carolina, because his QB can only throw for 3300 yards. Just look at how much better Smith looked when he had a new QB. Look how much better Lafell looks with another QB. That right there should tell you everything you need to know. Who has Dalton had other than Green? Dalton only had a run game last year, so the run games have been about the same. This year we have better receivers, but it's not like it's been like this every year.

Of course he put up better numbers because he was the Ravens only target. Torrey Smith played terrible most of the year aka the reason they let him walk. Sanu, Jones and Hawkins are better wrs than the Panthers had besides Smith. Not even close. Kelvin Benjamin had a decent campaign but he was a rookie and not polished at all. We have one of the deepest WR groups in the NFL. I get it, he didnt have wrs in the playoffs but he has had a pretty damn good group of wrs at his disposal since he's been here. Enough with the excuses. I dont wanna see Dalton fail. I hope to God he lights it up this season and wins us a Super Bowl but Im a realist and history says hes a slightly above avg regular season qb and a terrible big game qb. His ceiling is limited and his floor is uber low. Im not a genius but that doesnt equate a super bowl. If it does then I will gladly come here and eat my crow....but if history serves right we will be having this same convo next year.

(09-08-2015, 01:40 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Hill barely played the first 6 games

Gio missed 3 games I believe
Gresham also missed 3 games
Smith - our 3rd TE also missed the year with Eifert. Our TE's were decimated as were our WR's. Add it up, these 2 position groups Starters) missed more games than they played

Just shows how clueless the OC was for trotting Gio out there as a #1 RB.  

(09-08-2015, 01:43 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: I would draw the line on the sort of season we had the year prior to him being drafted.  

So basically, the whole team has to tank before it's time.

What happened to winning a SB?

(09-08-2015, 01:44 PM)WhoDeyWho Wrote: Just shows how clueless the OC was for trotting Gio out there as a #1 RB.

Yeah, I never understood that. Hill was clearly the guy.