(08-19-2018, 05:13 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree, you dont always need competition at every position for example many bengals have no competition based on their previous performance what you always want to have is a backup plan , so brown is a backup plan, well done bengals for finding brown.

He definitely looks like a interesting backup plan. He's fun to watch for sure. Its a big deal to have a guy who you know has ability to kick a 60+ yarder but Brown has a lot to prove still.  I'd love to some how keep him, but it may not be possible. He's a great backup plan tho.

(08-19-2018, 05:28 PM)Sled21 Wrote: Not my thought process at all. I'm all for a kicking competition. I was also more in favor of keeping Elliott last year, until Randy won the contest. I'm all about best player. What I'm laughing at is the statement all of a sudden that Brown is better than Bullock, when he hasn't even kicked in a real game yet. 

That is quite absurd for sure and i was right there with you wanting Elliott to make the team till he lost the competition.

Nothing wrong with having a competition though and giving Jon Brown more shots cause he could be a star.

We just do not know that yet. Hope they give him the rest of the kicks pretty much this Preseason.

How is he on Extra Points is my question? Doesn't matter if he can kick 70 yards if he is missing XP's all the time.

(08-19-2018, 08:30 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: That is quite absurd for sure and i was right there with you wanting Elliott to make the team till he lost the competition.

Nothing wrong with having a competition though and giving Jon Brown more shots cause he could be a star.

We just do not know that yet. Hope they give him the rest of the kicks pretty much this Preseason.

How is he on Extra Points is my question? Doesn't matter if he can kick 70 yards if he is missing XP's all the time.

Right, I agree there should be a competition for any spot, and anyone in training camp ought to be able to compete. I'm not knocking Brown at all, but he's just starting. The 55 yarder he made the other night, he missed the first time he kicked it. As of right now, with Bullock, we know we have a kicker with a high 80's%. With Brown, we just do not know.

John Brown: “I betcha I can kick this football over them mountains”. If they would just cut Fat Randy I’d make the team”.

Wow NFC runner up Minnesota Vikings released proven veteran Kai Forbath. There going with a unproven rookie with no experience. Forbath was 32-38 last year with a long of 53. I'm just stunned at this move. Especially from a team that was 1 win away from the Super Bowl. How stupid can you get.

(08-20-2018, 08:13 PM)Jhowdy54 Wrote: Wow NFC runner up Minnesota Vikings released proven veteran Kai Forbath.   There going with a unproven rookie with no experience.   Forbath was 32-38 last year with a long of 53.  I'm just stunned at this move.   Especially from a team that was 1 win away from the Super Bowl.   How stupid can you get.

The rook was only an 80% kicker in college too.  Seems risky.

I know Marvin said what he said but I think Thunder Thighs has a legit shot to be our new kicker.

(08-20-2018, 08:22 PM)McC Wrote: I know Marvin said what he said but I think Thunder Thighs has a legit shot to be our new kicker.

i hope you are correct and if they do, I hope it was the right move.   Brown has nice flight patterns to his kicks.  

(08-20-2018, 08:13 PM)Jhowdy54 Wrote: Wow NFC runner up Minnesota Vikings released proven veteran Kai Forbath.   There going with a unproven rookie with no experience.   Forbath was 32-38 last year with a long of 53.  I'm just stunned at this move.   Especially from a team that was 1 win away from the Super Bowl.   How stupid can you get.

How much was Forbath making last year?  Maybe they did it to save money.  Still, interesting...

(08-20-2018, 08:13 PM)Jhowdy54 Wrote: Wow NFC runner up Minnesota Vikings released proven veteran Kai Forbath.   There going with a unproven rookie with no experience.   Forbath was 32-38 last year with a long of 53.  I'm just stunned at this move.   Especially from a team that was 1 win away from the Super Bowl.   How stupid can you get.

32 out of 38 is just 84 percent and from what i read he struggled with extra points, missed a 41 yarder over weekend... they drafted a kicker in 5th round, so guess they decided to go a different direction.. lets be honest,, kicking has not been a pleasant memory for Zim

Brown obviously has a higher ceiling. He can make 60 yard kicks. We haven't had that kind of weapon as a kicker...ever.

I'd like to give him a shot because, if he flounders and cracks under the pressure, we could probably just go back out and sign Bullock. I doubt he signs anywhere else if we cut him. So why not go with the higher potential guy.

This is what they SHOULD have done with our 5th round pick kicker last year. Hopefully they learn from their mistakes.

(08-20-2018, 10:12 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Brown obviously has a higher ceiling. He can make 60 yard kicks. We haven't had that kind of weapon as a kicker...ever.

I'd like to give him a shot because, if he flounders and cracks under the pressure, we could probably just go back out and sign Bullock. I doubt he signs anywhere else if we cut him. So why not go with the higher potential guy.

This is what they SHOULD have done with our 5th round pick kicker last year. Hopefully they learn from their mistakes.

so last year.. Bullock outplayed Elliot in a open competition in practice and preseason then went on and made  90% of his field goals about 6 percent above the NFL where as Elliot made just below 84% and we made a mistake in cutting Elliot ??  

One of my favorite lines from a fellow coach was on the word "potential"  it means have not done shit yet..lol.. 

(08-20-2018, 10:30 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: so last year.. Bullock outplayed Elliot in a open competition in practice and preseason then went on and made  90% of his field goals about 6 percent above the NFL where as Elliot made just below 84% and we made a mistake in cutting Elliot ??  

One of my favorite lines from a fellow coach was on the word "potential"  it means have not done shit yet..lol.. 

Do you happen to have any stats on how many times we punted when we were on the 35 to 40 yard line? Because Bullock attempted exactly 1 50+ yard field goal. And it was 51 yards.

Meanwhile, Elliot was 5 for 6 from beyond 50 yards with a long of 61.

Sure, Bullock hit more kicks that his team asked him to take. But how many kicks did we not even attempt because we KNEW Bullock could not hit them?

Elliot had a few hiccups between 30 and 39. He was a rookie. But he was 12-13 from 40-49. So he was by no means erratic, as you're trying to paint him.

It was a mistake to cut Elliot. The stats show it.

(08-20-2018, 10:51 PM)Crazyjdawg Wrote: Do you happen to have any stats on how many times we punted when we were on the 35 to 40 yard line? Because Bullock attempted exactly 1 50+ yard field goal. And it was 51 yards.

Meanwhile, Elliot was 5 for 6 from beyond 50 yards with a long of 61.

Sure, Bullock hit more kicks that his team asked him to take. But how many kicks did we not even attempt because we KNEW Bullock could not hit them?

Elliot had a few hiccups between 30 and 39. He was a rookie. But he was 12-13 from 40-49. So he was by no means erratic, as you're trying to paint him.

It was a mistake to cut Elliot. The stats show it.

What stats show it? The last time I looked you get 3 pts for a field goal and no points for a miss. Also I like how you passed over the dreadful practice and preseason Elliot had, the Bengals gave him every opportunity to win the job, last year there was pressure on both kickers neither were perfect but Bullock outperformed him and then clearly was more accurate last year. To be honest not sure why elliot matters this year, Bullock took the job performed above avg. And has the job now. You are being critical of Bullock, he made his only chance over 50, so be critical of organization for not allowing him more chances.

(08-21-2018, 12:02 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: What stats show it? The last time I looked you get 3 pts for a field goal and no points for a miss. Also I like how you passed over the dreadful practice and preseason Elliot had, the Bengals gave him every opportunity to win the job, last year there was pressure on both kickers neither were perfect but Bullock outperformed him and then clearly was more accurate last year. To be honest not sure why elliot matters this year, Bullock took the job performed above avg. And has the job now. You are being critical of Bullock, he made his only chance over 50, so be critical of organization for not allowing him more chances.

Bullock had a good year.  He's good.  Not great.  This Brown project has been going on for a while now.  Looks like part of a plan.  And it looks like the plan is getting pretty close to fruition.  Brown just has a better leg, probably by far, hits the ball better, just looks better at kicking a football.

This year is just a prelude to next year, where the big plan is really headed.   They want to have a good year this year and then next year, when this year's new guys have a year under their belts, be a force. 

That's why you replace the decent vets with guys with much more upside.  And you do it now, even if they aren't entirely ready, so they will be ready next year.  Brown is, imo, a definite part of that plan.  No more stopgap kickers.  Marv wants his own Tucker.

(08-21-2018, 12:02 AM)Essex Johnson Wrote: What stats show it? The last time I looked you get 3 pts for a field goal and no points for a miss. Also I like how you passed over the dreadful practice and preseason Elliot had, the Bengals gave him every opportunity to win the job, last year there was pressure on both kickers neither were perfect but Bullock outperformed him and then clearly was more accurate last year. To be honest not sure why elliot matters this year, Bullock took the job performed above avg. And has the job now. You are being critical of Bullock, he made his only chance over 50, so be critical of organization for not allowing him more chances.

The stats of him going 17-19 from beyond 40 yards (20-22 including the post season) or a 91% clip. Randy Bullock's career numbers in 40+ is just under 70% (though he was 5-6 this season, so 83%). The stats of him breaking the rookie record for distance. The stats that have him making the same number of 50+ yard field goals (6) in his rookie year as Bullock has made in his entire career, at a significantly better percentage (86% for Elliot, 50% for Bullock). 

If you count his post season, he went 7-7 on their way to the super bowl, his percentage increases to 87%.

Looking at percentage of kicks made with a sample size as small as 20 kicks (which is what Bullock had) means that just 1 of those kicks not going through drops his percentage to 85%, so it's hard to ignore every other measurement of success and lean entirely on FG% as your gold standard for a kicker, especially when the two kickers are close in percentage over the course of the games that counted.

Calling Elliot's pre-season dreadful is a bit of an exaggeration. He missed 3 of his field goals, but 1 was a last second 60 yard FG that no one expected him to make (and he very nearly made). So, really, he went 4 for 6.

But drafting a guy, giving him 7 total kicks and then kicking him off the team (which is what you're doing by putting a cannon-legged kicker on your practice squad) because a journeyman kicker made more kicks in that 4 game stretch is just not a good decision.

Also, I'm explicitly not being critical of Bullock. I'm being critical of the organization. Hence the "they made a mistake not keeping Elliot."

That wasn't Bullock's decision. That was the Bengals' decision. Which is why I'm criticizing them. Choosing Bullock over Elliot was the conservative choice. It was the safe choice. But I don't think it was the right choice. And every single stat other that the single total FG% number (which isn't even that strong of a difference anyway, at only 3% greater for Bullock) seems to back that idea up.

Relying on Journeymen to completely change after 5 seasons of mediocre to terrible play is just not a good way to build your team. They had the foresight to draft a superior talent, but then threw him away for no real reason. All I'm saying is I hope they go with the talent this time around.

(08-19-2018, 01:02 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I just don't like it when Marv says stuff like this, there should always be competition it is what breeds excellence.

Jon Brown is extremely inexperienced though and Fat Randy has done a decent job in his time here. Think Brown will
need another Preseason of kicking FG's to be a starter. He has only kicked like 3 kicks in an NFL game.

But it is nice seeing the guy have such a great leg and he is good insurance it seems in case Fat Randy gets hurt or
something. I just don't ever like a coach saying there is not a competition.

I'm not trying to be a dick, Nate, but how many did Elliott have when he got here last year?  And he hits a 60 yarder in their opener to win the game and springboard them to their amazing season.  He also kicked some clutch FGs in the Super Bowl.

I'm sorry, but I have NEVER seen a kick like that 55 yarder....not because it looked like it would have been good from 65 (think about that) but because it looked like he barely swung at it!  

This kid is a rare talent.  He should be given every chance to send Randy to the Golden Corral.  

(08-20-2018, 10:30 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: so last year.. Bullock outplayed Elliot in a open competition in practice and preseason then went on and made  90% of his field goals about 6 percent above the NFL where as Elliot made just below 84% and we made a mistake in cutting Elliot ??  

One of my favorite lines from a fellow coach was on the word "potential"  it means have not done shit yet..lol.. 

That "potential" also kicked a 60 yarder to win their week 1 game.  

He was our 5th round pick, Fat Randy a journeyman with a lot of ups and downs.  I argued last year we should have kept Elliott, immediately after they went with Fat Randy, because of the contract and the upside/potential.  

We know what Randy is.  Jon Brown could be an amazing talent in the NFL.  

(08-21-2018, 07:31 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: I'm not trying to be a dick, Nate, but how many did Elliott have when he got here last year?  And he hits a 60 yarder in their opener to win the game and springboard them to their amazing season.  He also kicked some clutch FGs in the Super Bowl.

I'm sorry, but I have NEVER seen a kick like that 55 yarder....not because it looked like it would have been good from 65 (think about that) but because it looked like he barely swung at it!  

This kid is a rare talent.  He should be given every chance to send Randy to the Golden Corral.  

Well don't look past the fact he kicked that  55 yarder twice, and missed it the 1st time..... I'm not knocking Brown, I hope he turns into something special... but basically it comes down to do you want someone you know is going to give you a close to 90%, or an unknown that can maybe make longer kicks.....

(08-21-2018, 08:01 AM)Sled21 Wrote: Well don't look past the fact he kicked that  55 yarder twice, and missed it the 1st time..... I'm not knocking Brown, I hope he turns into something special... but basically it comes down to do you want someone you know is going to give you a close to 90%, or an unknown that can maybe make longer kicks.....

Do we know Bullock will give us close to 90%? His entire career prior to last year he had a career FG% of 81.3%.

Right now it's far more believable that last year was the outlier, not the previous 5 years.