(09-20-2018, 01:00 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yeah, sorry, cry wold doesn't fit. My bad.

That was MB decision and nobody else's. As stated many times over, MB is not a great (or probably even good) owner. It's nothing new. Marv has actually made MB look good. Check winning % before marv and with Marv. It's doubled. But it's not good enough for us fans and a lot of players. Guess what? That's his decision and way he wants to do it. And guess what else? he has every right to do it because he owns the team. I've come to accept that's the way it is. 

I don't blame Carson for wanting out. I actually don't even have any ill feelings toward him like most do. I blame Carson for knowing exactly what he was getting into and trying to play good cop and change a zebras stripes. You're usually going to be disappointed with that.

Fair points. But I don't believe for one second Carson knew what he was signing up for at the time he signed that extension (December 2005).

Call it naivety, call it being hopeful, call it delusional thinking that Mike Brown knew how/would do what it takes to build a perennial super bowl franchise, call it whatever you want. But there is no way Carson would have signed that extension if he truly knew what a selfish, cheap prick Mike Brown is. 

Back then we all thought the franchise had turned a corner and that there were inevitable great times ahead. Well, we were obviously wrong. And so was Carson. After that Press Conference I nearly threw in the towel on that nitwits franchise (but I have a sickness: I love this team too much). Carson left after years of essentially being lied to (yes, I still consider empty promises from a moronic owner lies). You can't really say Carson should have known better when the team did nothing but improve his first three years with the Bengals. 

(09-20-2018, 03:00 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Fair points. But I don't believe for one second Carson knew what he was signing up for at the time he signed that extension (December 2005).

Call it naivety, call it being hopeful, call it delusional thinking that Mike Brown knew how/would do what it takes to build a perennial super bowl franchise, call it whatever you want. But there is no way Carson would have signed that extension if he truly knew what a selfish, cheap prick Mike Brown is. 

Back then we all thought the franchise had turned a corner and that there were inevitable great times ahead. Well, we were obviously wrong. And so was Carson. After that Press Conference I nearly threw in the towel on that nitwits franchise (but I have a sickness: I love this team too much). Carson left after years of essentially being lied to (yes, I still consider empty promises from a moronic owner lies). You can't really say Carson should have known better when the team did nothing but improve his first three years with the Bengals. 

Could you imagine taking a time machine back to the 2005 regular season and telling Bengals fans that you are from the year 2018 and the Bengals still hadn't won a single playoff game?  They'd probably assume the team plane tragically crashed, or something.

(09-20-2018, 03:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Could you imagine taking a time machine back to the 2005 regular season and telling Bengals fans that you are from the year 2018 and the Bengals still hadn't won a single playoff game?  They'd probably assume the team plane tragically crashed, or something.

And that Marvin Lewis would still be head coach?? Man, I would have never believed it. I was 15/16 years old in 2005, and my naive love for the Bengals was at an all-time high. I likely would have had a mini-breakdown if I heard the future.

The best laid plans...

(09-20-2018, 03:08 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: And that Marvin Lewis would still be head coach?? Man, I would have never believed it. I was 15/16 years old in 2005, and my naive love for the Bengals was at an all-time high. I likely would have had a mini-breakdown if I heard the future.

The best laid plans...

Yup, it really puts things in perspective when you look at the big picture.  The last time we won a playoff game I was in 2nd grade.  Now I'm 36 and have a doctorate and grey hair while our drought marches on.  Go figure.

My favorite?  The Detroit Lions have won a single playoff game between now and the time I Love Lucy was still making new episodes.

(09-20-2018, 03:00 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Fair points. But I don't believe for one second Carson knew what he was signing up for at the time he signed that extension (December 2005).

Call it naivety, call it being hopeful, call it delusional thinking that Mike Brown knew how/would do what it takes to build a perennial super bowl franchise, call it whatever you want. But there is no way Carson would have signed that extension if he truly knew what a selfish, cheap prick Mike Brown is. 

Back then we all thought the franchise had turned a corner and that there were inevitable great times ahead. Well, we were obviously wrong. And so was Carson. After that Press Conference I nearly threw in the towel on that nitwits franchise (but I have a sickness: I love this team too much). Carson left after years of essentially being lied to (yes, I still consider empty promises from a moronic owner lies). You can't really say Carson should have known better when the team did nothing but improve his first three years with the Bengals. 

And he was soooooooooo great when he left.

(09-20-2018, 03:00 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Fair points. But I don't believe for one second Carson knew what he was signing up for at the time he signed that extension (December 2005).

Call it naivety, call it being hopeful, call it delusional thinking that Mike Brown knew how/would do what it takes to build a perennial super bowl franchise, call it whatever you want. But there is no way Carson would have signed that extension if he truly knew what a selfish, cheap prick Mike Brown is. 

Back then we all thought the franchise had turned a corner and that there were inevitable great times ahead. Well, we were obviously wrong. And so was Carson. After that Press Conference I nearly threw in the towel on that nitwits franchise (but I have a sickness: I love this team too much). Carson left after years of essentially being lied to (yes, I still consider empty promises from a moronic owner lies). You can't really say Carson should have known better when the team did nothing but improve his first three years with the Bengals. 

And he was soooooooooo great when he left.

(09-20-2018, 03:29 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: And he was soooooooooo great when he left.

Carson? He was actually really good with Arizona. Like really, really good. He lead them to the playoffs and that team was a Super Bowl contender. 

A lot of people have memories of Carson not playing well in the final year in Cincinnati. That was partially due to a shoulder and him tearing just about every ligament in his right hand. 

(09-20-2018, 02:50 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Hmm, it would have been interesting if Carson played out his rookie contract here and then stated the Bengals weren't trying to win, so he would elected to go the FA route.  Unless your are suggesting he should have pulled a John Elway or Eli Manning and refused to even play for the Bengals as soon as they drafted him.  The Bengals hadn't had a winning season in the decade plus since MB took over by the time Carson was drafted, and MB had clearly established himself as a lousy GM with no intention of holding himself accountable.  Maybe Carson and Marvin Lewis were idiots for even accepting jobs with the Bengals.  Ouch.

Either way, it would have been pretty newsworthy. 

EDIT:  I can actually see an alternate reality where Carson refused to play for the Bengals as soon as they drafted him and the Chicago Bears sent us Rex Grossman and a handful of picks for him.

Nah, check some of Palmers quotes. Something along the lines of "wanting to change the culture and start winning". Something like that. So he KNEW that MB led Bengals were lousy for a extended period of time. And I am sure he knew some other details about his "cheapness" as well (or arrogance, whatever you want to call it). 

The bolded is how I would of handled it as well. To even bring that up to an NFL owner is just plain silly and says it all IMO

(09-20-2018, 03:00 PM)Pat5775 Wrote: Fair points. But I don't believe for one second Carson knew what he was signing up for at the time he signed that extension (December 2005).

Call it naivety, call it being hopeful, call it delusional thinking that Mike Brown knew how/would do what it takes to build a perennial super bowl franchise, call it whatever you want. But there is no way Carson would have signed that extension if he truly knew what a selfish, cheap prick Mike Brown is. 

Back then we all thought the franchise had turned a corner and that there were inevitable great times ahead. Well, we were obviously wrong. And so was Carson. After that Press Conference I nearly threw in the towel on that nitwits franchise (but I have a sickness: I love this team too much). Carson left after years of essentially being lied to (yes, I still consider empty promises from a moronic owner lies). You can't really say Carson should have known better when the team did nothing but improve his first three years with the Bengals. 

How could he not tho? Why would he even bring it up when talking about an extension?

(09-20-2018, 03:54 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Nah, check some of Palmers quotes. Something along the lines of "wanting to change the culture and start winning". Something like that. So he KNEW that MB led Bengals were lousy for a extended period of time. And I am sure he knew some other details about his "cheapness" as well (or arrogance, whatever you want to call it). 

The bolded is how I would of handled it as well. To even bring that up to an NFL owner is just plain silly and says it all IMO

Hell, if it was so hopeless maybe he shouldn't have even signed here to begin with.  Let's be honest, John Elway and Eli Manning probably wouldn't have won rings and/or made it into the HOF if they hadn't refused to play for the teams that drafted them.  For all NFL fans rag on players being spoiled-rotten divas, there is evidence that avoiding certain organizations can benefit your career.

Do we think AJ Green and Andy Dalton are insane and/or unconcerned with winning since they signed long-term deals here?

(09-20-2018, 04:25 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: How could he not tho? Why would he even bring it up when talking about an extension?

Well again, you could chalk it up as Carson being naive, blissfully ignorant (he said in an interview not too long ago that when entering the draft he would have gladly played for any team, and that he believed he could turn around any franchise and make them a contender... Fast forward to 2010 and Carson realized not even he was above Mike Browns dysfunction...)

Or, like most of us, Carson simply believed that the franchise had really turned a corner, and all the negative stuff about Mike Brown was in the rear view mirror. Again, he signed the contract extension in December 2005, I believe only a day or so after we demolished Detroit to lock up the AFC North. This was probably the best time to be a Bengal fan in the past 30 years. We had respect nationwide, we weren't viewed as "dirty" or "criminals" yet. It was okay and extremely fun to be a Bengal fan. Nearly everyone was happy for the team. There was no better time to sign an extension...


And yet, sadly... We all know how that turned out. We were duped. Mike Brown was still Mike Brown. We were all just too blinded by our jubilation to realize who was still in charge of this franchise.     

(09-20-2018, 03:29 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: And he was soooooooooo great when he left.

He was a top 3 QB in AZ in 2015 and he led the NFL in a number of passing categories while winning 13 games.  You don't have to like the guy, but he was a pretty good QB and it's quite telling that the Bengals couldn't get a single playoff win with him at the helm (much like they have yet to get one with a pretty good QB in Dalton at the helm).

Again, this just seems like one of those things where people are more interested in their feelings than the actual reality of a situation.

(09-20-2018, 06:35 PM)Nately120 Wrote: He was a top 3 QB in AZ in 2015 and he led the NFL in a number of passing categories while winning 13 games.  You don't have to like the guy, but he was a pretty good QB and it's quite telling that the Bengals couldn't get a single playoff win with him at the helm (much like they have yet to get one with a pretty good QB in Dalton at the helm).

Again, this just seems like one of those things where people are more interested in their feelings than the actual reality of a situation.

Bingo

(09-20-2018, 03:04 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Could you imagine taking a time machine back to the 2005 regular season and telling Bengals fans that you are from the year 2018 and the Bengals still hadn't won a single playoff game?  They'd probably assume the team plane tragically crashed, or something.

That is basically what happened.  We went from having one of the best O-lines in the league in '05 to below average in just two seasons.

'06 Braham career ending injury and Levi Jones injury that he never fully recovered from.

'07  Willie Anderson injury that he never fully recovers from and Eric Steinbach gone in free agency.

Those are the main reasons the potential of the '05 team was never realized.

(09-19-2018, 09:02 AM)fredtoast Wrote: People who call themselves "realist" don't know what the term means.

"Realists" in Philly said the Eagles could not win a Super Bowl last year.  Their opinion had nothing to do with reality.

You are entitled to be a "negative" fan if you want.  Just don't try to claim you are a "realist".

What a useless post Fred, i am being real here

(09-20-2018, 12:50 PM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Yeah, you know what I meant lol. My bad. He could of easily gave them that bucket of cold-water by not signing the contract. He knew full well the history of the team with MB. You don't think if he would of said "**** you" when negotiating they wouldn't of got the message across? 

Bengals may be a team that isn't 100% serious about winning, but they are not chop liver that isn't shit, either. There's has to be some sort of respect, or again, why did he sign that contract? Same with the Enron guy. If he knew the CEO was a *******, why did he go work for him? 

(09-20-2018, 01:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Teams bail on contracts when something changes.

Nothing changed from the time Carson signed his contract until the time he decided to quit.

The answer to both these posts is the same. Carson said he expected change. IIRC, he even said that Mikey said he'd work on things. It didn't happen. 

(09-20-2018, 10:57 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The answer to both these posts is the same. Carson said he expected change. IIRC, he even said that Mikey said he'd work on things. It didn't happen. 

Indeed,

Carson got fed up with MB's lip service. Mikey had gotten away with it so long he figured it would work again....it didn't.

Just like the narrative after ML signed a new contract after 2010 "oh MB is stepping back, Katie, Marvin and Duke are running it" BS !

Has he now finally taken a step back ???

(09-20-2018, 11:05 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Indeed,

Carson got fed up with MB's lip service. Mikey had gotten away with it so long he figured it would work again....it didn't.

Just like the narrative after ML signed a new contract after 2010 "oh MB is stepping back, Katie, Marvin and Duke are running it" BS !

Has he now finally taken a step back ???

If he's breathing...he's still deep in the thick of things. Hes probably got nothing better to do with his life. You can only count your money over and over so much

(09-20-2018, 11:48 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Did they go around saying this player wasn't committed to winning, needs to get a better agent and better structure to their careers? It's fine he wanted out. But to cry wolf because they did not do what they've never done is dumb. How about he does his job and let the others do theirs. Or not. But don't commit if they are not. 

He signed the extension in his 3rd year. First year, they almost made the playoffs. Second year was his first year starting. His third year, they made the playoffs and he was considered a top 3 QB. 

After signing the contract, he played 5 more years. One of them 4-11-1 and another 4-12. It's not like he was some Bengals historian. I doubt he knew anything about the Bengals other than what might have been told to him, and those first 3 years were nothing like that previous 12 for the Bengals. It was the following 5 years when they were, at best, average that did it. 

I'm not making excuses for him, those are just the facts.

(09-20-2018, 11:05 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Indeed,

Carson got fed up with MB's lip service. Mikey had gotten away with it so long he figured it would work again....it didn't.

Just like the narrative after ML signed a new contract after 2010 "oh MB is stepping back, Katie, Marvin and Duke are running it" BS !

Has he now finally taken a step back ???

Mike very well may have taken a step back. My only reason for thinking this?


Mikes best buddy, longest tenured staff member and assistant head coach Paul Alexander was not brought back. That's a huge tell-tale sign that Marvin wrenched some (more?) control out of Mikes crotchety old hands.