(10-25-2018, 12:51 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Geez that's a pretty grim assessment of our organization if you think we are getting next to nothing out of a guy Tomlin and Randy Fischner would make into a world beater.

Whether a WR was a top pick or a 7th rounder, if he isn't a big part of our game plan he's going to to New England or Pittsburgh and curb stomp us with righteous vengeance.  I haven't checked out that Auden Tate thread in a while, but I'm sure there is at least one person in there warning us that if we don't keep Tate he's going to go to the Steelers/Patriots and make us sorry.

Not liking how our coaches have used Ross at all. I think decent coaches could get something out of him.

The Patriots have taken a few of our backups before and they made plays for them. Burkhead, Flowers.

No reason they couldn't do it with a top ten pick WR that is as fast as anyone....

AB was like a 6th rounder for heck sake. Hate the guy but he is damn good.

(10-25-2018, 01:09 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Not liking how our coaches have used Ross at all. I think decent coaches could get something out of him.

The Patriots have taken a few of our backups before and they made plays for them. Burkhead, Flowers.

No reason they couldn't do it with a top ten pick WR that is as fast as anyone....

AB was like a 6th rounder for heck sake. Hate the guy but he is damn good.

I'm not entirely disagreeing.  Personally, I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me, being someone who tends to empathize with players becoming disillusioned with the "Mike Brown/Marvin Lewis forever" mantra of this organization, to not entertain the possibility that we can limit player success.

The rub is, Dalton doesn't target Ross even when Marvin puts him out there.  So if Ross is really a victim of the scheme, our own QB that we don't dislike is part of the conspiracy/incompetence against him.  I'm not convinced Marvin and Lazor know how to use Ross, but Dalton doesn't target the guy, so...now what?  Do we assign Dalton blame for this, too?

Then we start to get into our HC, OC, offensive coaches, training staff, medical staff, and QB all being on one side of the coin and Ross on the other. Well, that's a little much even for argument's sake, but you see where I'm going with this.

I hated this pick right when it was announced. Why gamble with ant top pick that has an injury history? The Bengals don’t seem to ever factor that in. He is here though, so I’ll have to give him until the end of next season before I’d label him a bust. I’d trade him right now for even a 4th or 5th rounder but then again, I was cursing at the tv when the pick was made.

(10-25-2018, 01:26 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I hated this pick right when it was announced. Why gamble with ant top pick that has an injury history? 

Because every team in the league does it in order to try and get the best talent.  The very same year we took Ross there were multiple players taken ahead of him who were coming off injuries (Myles Garrett, Leonard Fournette, Christian McCafferty)

If you eliminate all guys who got injured in college then you are going to have slim pickings in the draft.

(10-25-2018, 12:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: WTF are you looking at?

Ross is bigger than both Hill and Antonio Brown and Baby Hawk was 5'7".

They both look bigger then him. Hawkins was 5'7 but muscled up and thicker.

(10-25-2018, 01:26 PM)Circleville Guy Wrote: I hated this pick right when it was announced. Why gamble with ant top pick that has an injury history? The Bengals don’t seem to ever factor that in. He is here though, so I’ll have to give him until the end of next season before I’d label him a bust. I’d trade him right now for even a 4th or 5th rounder but then again, I was cursing at the tv when the pick was made.

We don't have an actual GM, our owner who can't be fired no matter what is our GM.  It's not entirely accurate to call something "gambling" when you can't technically loose.  Sure, the odds of the outcome are up to chance, but there isn't the risk of loss with Mike Brown that other GM's take into account when making personnel decisions.  Our GM can afford to take injured players, because he isn't losing his job if it takes a few years for the guy to make an impact. Mike Brown gambled big on Akili Smith and lost...so what?

It reminds me of how the media has given up on the Bengals.  We've had the same HC/GM combo for close to 20 years, and meanwhile Jon Gruden is in Oakland selling out the present for the future (maybe?) and the media, his players, and fans are going ape about how clearly incongruous it is that a guy with a 10+ year contract is making decisions to mortgage the now for the future to benefit himself, a different location, and different players.  None of this frustration seems very new to me.  Anyways, back to Ross.  

(10-25-2018, 01:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Because every team in the league does it in order to try and get the best talent.  The very same year we took Ross there were multiple players taken ahead of him who were coming off injuries (Myles Garrett, Leonard Fournette, Christian McCafferty)

If you eliminate all guys who got injured in college then you are going to have slim pickings in the draft.

Couple the injury history with drafting a deep threat while having a line that doesn’t give him time to get open. There’s two strikes against the pick. His size isn’t any kind of plus. I hope that he does work out eventually but I want my early picks to have an immediate impact. I just didn’t like the pick. I do hope that he works out but he’s shown virtually no benefit so far.

(10-25-2018, 01:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We don't have an actual GM, our owner who can't be fired no matter what is our GM.  It's not entirely accurate to call something "gambling" when you can't technically loose.  Sure, the odds of the outcome are up to chance, but there isn't the risk of loss with Mike Brown that other GM's take into account when making personnel decisions.  Our GM can afford to take injured players, because he isn't losing his job if it takes a few years for the guy to make an impact. Mike Brown gambled big on Akili Smith and lost...so what?

It reminds me of how the media has given up on the Bengals.  We've had the same HC/GM combo for close to 20 years, and meanwhile Jon Gruden is in Oakland selling out the present for the future (maybe?) and the media, his players, and fans are going ape about how clearly incongruous it is that a guy with a 10+ year contract is making decisions to mortgage the now for the future to benefit himself, a different location, and different players.  None of this frustration seems very new to me.  Anyways, back to Ross.  

Never having accountability is the biggest factor to the playoff win drought. I just really scratch my head when they(Mike) doesn’t learn from repeated mistakes.

(10-25-2018, 01:17 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not entirely disagreeing.  Personally, I think it would be pretty hypocritical of me, being someone who tends to empathize with players becoming disillusioned with the "Mike Brown/Marvin Lewis forever" mantra of this organization, to not entertain the possibility that we can limit player success.

The rub is, Dalton doesn't target Ross even when Marvin puts him out there.  So if Ross is really a victim of the scheme, our own QB that we don't dislike is part of the conspiracy/incompetence against him.  I'm not convinced Marvin and Lazor know how to use Ross, but Dalton doesn't target the guy, so...now what?  Do we assign Dalton blame for this, too?  

Then we start to get into our HC, OC, offensive coaches, training staff, medical staff, and QB all being on one side of the coin and Ross on the other.  Well, that's a little much even for argument's sake, but you see where I'm going with this.

Yeah, i see where you are going. Dalton forces the ball to AJ too much as well. I give Dalton crap too at times.

The entire Ross situation has seemed to be handled badly though IMO. Should of had a sports psychologist for Ross.

Should use him more to his strengths, which are in the open field and deep. Not just jet sweeps and out routes etc.

Don't like how Lazor has used him so far either and i like Lazor.

One thing leads to another though that is for sure and Marv is who you have to look at here first.

(10-25-2018, 01:35 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: They both look bigger then him. Hawkins was 5'7 but muscled up and thicker.

Don't have the pics but i have seen Ross next to AB, Ross is taller, bigger and thicker.

No way that Hawk looks bigger than Ross, no way. Ross has looked like a RB in many pics.

I just don't know what player you are looking at here. It is not his size that is the problem, it is his ligaments or something.

Maybe he doesn't stretch enough, i don't know. Conditioning and such.

(10-25-2018, 01:49 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yeah, i see where you are going. Dalton forces the ball to AJ too much as well. I give Dalton crap too at times.

The entire Ross situation has seemed to be handled badly though IMO. Should of had a sports psychologist for Ross.

Should use him more to his strengths, which are in the open field and deep. Not just jet sweeps and out routes etc.

Don't like how Lazor has used him so far either and i like Lazor.

One thing leads to another though that is for sure and Marv is who you have to look at here first.

I know you really like him Nate......but quitting on routes is not a good look, and cost you targets 10 out of 10 times.  Drops are one thing, but outright quitting on routes and contributing to two INTs directly will make a QBs confidence in you falter a bit.  To Dalton's credit, he went right back to him at Atlanta, and went to him at KC until he came up lame again.

(10-25-2018, 11:52 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Hell, I wasn't correct; I thought Ced would work out, but I was also a big fan of Andre 350 and D2. Kirk, not so much; I wanted the Jackrabbit. I think that's why many are quick/remiss to apply the bust tag, because the player was not a favorite of theirs in the draft. I thought JR was a terrible pick and if not for 1 40 yard dash he would have been a mid-rounder; so I may be doubtful of his ability to blossom more than others.. Also I don't remember anybody ever saying WJIII was a bust. 

How long do we give it before we are allowed to call someone a bust? 

Since many people say players don't blossom until their third year, I typically give a player 3-4 years before I put that label on them.

(10-25-2018, 10:03 AM)Wyche Wrote: Yep.....I was hoping for around 400 yards or so....that's not much to ask.  This guy hasn't even come close to that in TWO seasons.

The board is unbearable?  LOL.....nah, but shit man, for a #9 overall pick, you'd hope to have gotten more than a handful of games, a critical fumble, several drops, and quitting on routes.  C'mon Housh.....you trash the QB and a few others at any opportunity you get, but this guy gets a pass?  PPPFFFFFTTTTT.

I think one reason I still hold out hope for Ross is he's not reinjuring those repaired knees like some people thought would happen (almost) immediately upon entering the league. The injuries he is suffering are almost always different. Arm, ankle, groin, etc. It's when it happens over and over that it becomes a true problem.

(10-25-2018, 02:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think one reason I still hold out hope for Ross is he's not reinjuring those repaired knees like some people thought would happen (almost) immediately upon entering the league. The injuries he is suffering are almost always different. Arm, ankle, groin, etc. It's when it happens over and over that it becomes a true problem.

Agreed.....and I wouldn't write him off just yet either.  However, when he does get those chances, he needs to capitalize on them sooner rather than later.  He's shown some flashes, but the Carolina game was pitiful.  Gotta clean that up.

Its hard for me to be neutral on this because I did not like the pick to begin with at #9 overall in the draft. It wasn't as bad as the CedO pick was, but nearly up there risk-wise because he only had 1 good season in the Pac 12 while also missing time due to injury. Draft him in the 2nd or 3rd, much better value verses risk.

Anyways at this point he hasn't done anything. Does that make him a bust, no. Is he on his way of being one though, yes. Any chance for him to play good, let alone playing like a top 10 pick should, the coaching has to do more to help him out and get involved with more designed plays for him. Otherwise I just dont see it happening on this team at least.

(10-25-2018, 02:32 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I think one reason I still hold out hope for Ross is he's not reinjuring those repaired knees like some people thought would happen (almost) immediately upon entering the league. The injuries he is suffering are almost always different. Arm, ankle, groin, etc. It's when it happens over and over that it becomes a true problem.

Eventually he's going to run out of things to injure once and something is going to get injured twice, though.

I'll give Ross until after the 8 game mark next year before calling him a bust. He certainly has not been what a team would want from an early 1st round pick since most teams want production day from a 1st rounder. Cutting him at this point would not do much since there isn't really a reason to do so. Hopefully while he is out due to injury he is studying and doing what he can to improve until he can get back on the field.

(10-25-2018, 01:38 PM)Nately120 Wrote: We don't have an actual GM, our owner who can't be fired no matter what is our GM.  It's not entirely accurate to call something "gambling" when you can't technically loose.  Sure, the odds of the outcome are up to chance, but there isn't the risk of loss with Mike Brown that other GM's take into account when making personnel decisions.  Our GM can afford to take injured players, because he isn't losing his job if it takes a few years for the guy to make an impact. Mike Brown gambled big on Akili Smith and lost...so what?

It reminds me of how the media has given up on the Bengals.  We've had the same HC/GM combo for close to 20 years, and meanwhile Jon Gruden is in Oakland selling out the present for the future (maybe?) and the media, his players, and fans are going ape about how clearly incongruous it is that a guy with a 10+ year contract is making decisions to mortgage the now for the future to benefit himself, a different location, and different players.  None of this frustration seems very new to me.  Anyways, back to Ross.  

Never having accountability is the biggest factor to the playoff win drought. I just really scratch my head when they(Mike) doesn’t learn from repeated mistakes.

(10-25-2018, 12:29 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: WTF are you looking at?

Ross is bigger than both Hill and Antonio Brown and Baby Hawk was 5'7".

Maybe it's just that Hill and Brown play bigger than Ross.  

John Ross has been on the field for 159 snaps.
Erickson, Core, and Malone has been on the field for a combined 248 snaps.

John Ross has 79 receiving yards and 7 receptions.
The other 3 have a combined 81 receiving yards and 11 receptions.

Ross has 2 TDs.
The other three have 0.

John Ross is tied for 3rd for receiving TDs on this team, despite missing games.

Fact is; the Bengals offense has looked way better with him on the field than without him.
The Bengals offense scored 13 points against the Dolphins without him. They scored 21 points against the Steelers. And while he only played basically a quarter, the offense only scored 10 against the Chiefs.

To believe that John Ross doesn't help this offense out is ludicrous and goes against film.

Some can argue "Well eventually they'll leave Ross one on one and dare the Bengals to beat them deep".
How is that a negative?
Four of Ross' catches have gone for first downs. Two are touchdowns.
Only one catch didn't go for a touchdown or first down.