(11-05-2018, 09:29 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Agreed, I can't really get behind trading draft picks for what is essentially a "rental", a guy that most likely isn't even going to be on the team next year.  One of the Bengals biggest operating M.O.s is to draft and develop.  They invested a 3rd round pick in Willis, it's time for him to develop.  

Think I'm wrong?  What would have happened if they would have kept Geno Atkins on the bench, and picked up a "rental"?  Injuries pushed him into service, and the rest is history.

Atkins led the NFL in sacks during his rookie preseason, then looked great in limited snaps as a rookie.

I'm just saying that it's not like he came out of nowhere. 

In a vacuum, I'd agree with what you're saying, but there are some scenarios where I'd consider giving up a 4th (or especially a 5th-6th) to make a go of things.

Such as when our great core of players are all 30+ years old, and we have a glaring weakness that can be addressed in a big way. 

(11-05-2018, 04:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This year Willis has more tackles than Irvin and the exact same number of QB hits.

(11-05-2018, 04:57 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Point is he's playing as well or better than Irvin, so there might not be much of a benefit to bring in Irvin. 

Willis has barely played this year. Didn't fit what Gruden wants with scheme and all, is what's being said.

It'd be interesting to see the pressures/sacks per snap numbers for both. 

I'd say a guy with 39.5 career sacks in 7 seasons is at least worth kicking the tires on. Especially when scheme/salary played more into his release than regression in skills.

(11-06-2018, 04:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Atkins led the NFL in sacks during his rookie preseason, then looked great in limited snaps as a rookie.

I'm just saying that it's not like he came out of nowhere. 

In a vacuum, I'd agree with what you're saying, but there are some scenarios where I'd consider giving up a 4th (or especially a 5th-6th) to make a go of things.

Such as when our great core of players are all 30+ years old, and we have a glaring weakness that can be addressed in a big way. 

I'm not so sure at this point Shake one or even two guys brought in is going to make a big enough difference. Had they made some moves two weeks ago it probably would have made some sense but you know MB's sitting on his hands GM style.

Having said that this upcoming off season is going to easily be the most important one our current core has ever had. The Bengals are going to have to hit a 5 run home run in order for them to have a chance.

They're going to have to get a couple real top shelf FA's, period. They're going to have to hit on all the top draft picks, period.

Or time is going to have slipped away, there's not going to be any more next years with this core.

(11-06-2018, 05:05 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Willis has barely played this year. Didn't fit what Gruden wants with scheme and all, is what's being said.

It'd be interesting to see the pressures/sacks per snap numbers for both. 

I'd say a guy with 39.5 career sacks in 7 seasons is at least worth kicking the tires on. Especially when scheme/salary played more into his release than regression in skills.

Did you mean Willis or Irvin?

For Irvin, he played 250 defensive snaps, which has been 48% of snaps.
Willis has played 316 defensive snaps, which has been 52% of snaps.

So in reality, they have been pretty similar in terms of percentage of snaps.

(11-06-2018, 05:21 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm not so sure at this point Shake one or even two guys brought in is going to make a big enough difference. Had they made some moves two weeks ago it probably would have made some sense but you know MB's sitting on his hands GM style.

Having said that this upcoming off season is going to easily be the most important one our current core has ever had. The Bengals are going to have to hit a 5 run home run in order for them to have a chance.

They're going to have to get a couple real top shelf FA's, period. They're going to have to hit on all the top draft picks, period.

Or time is going to have slipped away, there's not going to be any more next years with this core.

Mike Brown I think is the real owner of the Philadelphia 76'ers.
Their motto - "Trust the process."

(11-06-2018, 05:29 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Mike Brown I think is the real owner of the Philadelphia 76'ers.
Their motto - "Trust the process."

A 40 year one

(11-06-2018, 05:21 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I'm not so sure at this point Shake one or even two guys brought in is going to make a big enough difference. Had they made some moves two weeks ago it probably would have made some sense but you know MB's sitting on his hands GM style.

Having said that this upcoming off season is going to easily be the most important one our current core has ever had. The Bengals are going to have to hit a 5 run home run in order for them to have a chance.

They're going to have to get a couple real top shelf FA's, period. They're going to have to hit on all the top draft picks, period.

Or time is going to have slipped away, there's not going to be any more next years with this core.

Fair enough point, but you never know unless you try. Shame seeing this 5-3 record and all these injuries.

(11-06-2018, 05:28 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Did you mean Willis or Irvin?

For Irvin, he played 250 defensive snaps, which has been 48% of snaps.
Willis has played 316 defensive snaps, which has been 52% of snaps.

So in reality, they have been pretty similar in terms of percentage of snaps.

What are the pressure and sack numbers?

Percentages are similar, but that doesn't really matter when Willis has 66 more snaps than Irvin, which is quite a bit more after only 8 games. 

I do know Willis has 0 sacks and Irvin has 3. So Irvin has 3 more sacks in 66 less snaps? I think I'd work him out, but maybe that's just me.

(11-06-2018, 05:52 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fair enough point, but you never know unless you try. Shame seeing this 5-3 record and all these injuries.


What are the pressure and sack numbers?

Percentages are similar, but that doesn't really matter when Willis has 66 more snaps than Irvin, which is quite a bit more after only 8 games. 

I do know Willis has 0 sacks and Irvin has 3. So Irvin has 3 more sacks in 66 less snaps? I think I'd work him out, but maybe that's just me.

Sack numbers are 3.0 for Irvin, 0.0 for Willis. I don't have access to pressure numbers, just went off what Fred said that they were practically identical. So to my understanding, both Willis and Irvin are getting pressure about the same amount but Irvin has been able to finish off a bit more by getting sacks whereas Willis hasn't.

(11-06-2018, 04:56 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Atkins led the NFL in sacks during his rookie preseason, then looked great in limited snaps as a rookie.

I'm just saying that it's not like he came out of nowhere. 

In a vacuum, I'd agree with what you're saying, but there are some scenarios where I'd consider giving up a 4th (or especially a 5th-6th) to make a go of things.

Such as when our great core of players are all 30+ years old, and we have a glaring weakness that can be addressed in a big way. 

Well, since the world is seeing how the Amari Cooper deal is working out for the Cowboys, maybe Dez wasn't the problem?  We could still have him, AND hold onto all draft picks.

(11-06-2018, 07:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Well, since the world is seeing how the Amari Cooper deal is working out for the Cowboys, maybe Dez wasn't the problem?  We could still have him, AND hold onto all draft picks.

Son of Paul ain't doing shit.....lol.