(11-12-2018, 01:44 AM)bfine32 Wrote: Isn't Andy about 21st in passer rating this year?

But it never gets old to hear all the reasons why it's not his fault.

Whenever dalton leaves here he will still carry the legacy that it wasnt his fault

It's funny before this game most people were acting like Dalton was the MVP of the season for the Bengals.

(11-12-2018, 04:56 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: It's funny before this game most people were acting like Dalton was the MVP of the season for the Bengals.

The knocks on Dalton have been consistent throughout his career. This is nothing new. With AJ Green Dalton is good enough to not be replaced by an owner who doesn't give a shit about winning a SB. That's about all that can be said.

Newer rules favor QBs and Dalton's numbers cannot be compared to QBs of yesteryear. Instead, the numbers have to be compared with his contemporaries and in that comparison he's more or less an average Joe at QB.

Been saying the above for years and Dalton keeps proving me right, year after year.

(11-13-2018, 01:09 AM)BengalChris Wrote: The knocks on Dalton have been consistent throughout his career. This is nothing new. With AJ Green Dalton is good enough to not be replaced by an owner who doesn't give a shit about winning a SB. That's about all that can be said.

Newer rules favor QBs and Dalton's numbers cannot be compared to QBs of yesteryear. Instead, the numbers have to be compared with his contemporaries and in that comparison he's more or less an average Joe at QB.

Been saying the above for years and Dalton keeps proving me right, year after year.

So basically you make some vague allegations that don't really mean anything and claim Dalton proves they are true?

I have been a round and around with guys like you.  You all end up admitting that he is in the top half of the league in QBs and then try to act like that sucks and he should be replaced.

If you compare him with current active QBs his passer ranking is tenth

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_active.htm

Since he entered the league in 2011 he is 10th in passing yards, 9th in passing tds, 2nd in rushing tds by a QB, 2nd in "game winning drives" (defined by ProFootballReference.com), and 6th in "4th quarter comebacks" ProFootballReference.com).

Dalton has a very high ceiling.  When he is good he is very good.  Since 2011 only 6 QBs have more games with a 125+ passer rating than Dalton's 14, and only 6 other QBs have posted a full season passer rating higher than Dalton's 106.2 in 2015.

What kills Dalton is the number of very bad games he has.  Since 2011 no QB has more games with a passer rating under 70 than Dalton.

(11-13-2018, 04:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So basically you make some vague allegations that don't really mean anything and claim Dalton proves they are true?

I have been a round and around with guys like you.  You all end up admitting that he is in the top half of the league in QBs and then try to act like that sucks and he should be replaced.

If you compare him with current active QBs his passer ranking is tenth

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_active.htm

Since he entered the league in 2011 he is 10th in passing yards, 9th in passing tds, 2nd in rushing tds by a QB, 2nd in "game winning drives" (defined by ProFootballReference.com), and 6th in "4th quarter comebacks" ProFootballReference.com).

Dalton has a very high ceiling.  When he is good he is very good.  Since 2011 only 6 QBs have more games with a 125+ passer rating than Dalton's 14, and only 6 other QBs have posted a full season passer rating higher than Dalton's 106.2 in 2015.

What kills Dalton is the number of very bad games he has.  Since 2011 no QB has more games with a passer rating under 70 than Dalton.

What primetime big game performance from Dalton makes you believe? I have tried over and over a to stay on the band wagon. I have not seen enough clutch or ability to dominate. Sure you can win with a mediocre QB. But everything else has to be perfect. I think it is easier to find 1 player than everything else with your team to play out perfectly for a season.

You have to be losing to qualify for a game winning drive. Which means you didnt have enough points to be winning. 

The most important position on the field. And we have spent barely any draft capital on competition since Andy has been here. 

(11-13-2018, 08:50 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: What primetime big game performance from Dalton makes you believe?

2015 on the road against 8-1 Cardinals.  Down by 10 with just over 6 minutes left.  Dalton drives us 60 yds for a td in just 2 minutes.  Gets the ball back on his own 15 with less than 3 minutes left and drives for game tying FG.  We don't call a single running play in those last 2 drives.  It was all Dalton against the NUMBER ONE DEFENSE in the league.

The Cards defense recorded 7 QB hits on Dalton and sacked him 4 times but he still complete 22 of 39 for 315 yds, 2 tds, and zero ints.  He also rushed 8 times for 34 yards and 2 third down conversions.

(11-13-2018, 08:50 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Sure you can win with a mediocre QB.

Why do you call him "mediocre" when he is top 10 among active QBs in passer rating and op 10 in both yards and tds since he entered the league?

(11-13-2018, 08:50 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: You have to be losing to qualify for a game winning drive. Which means you didnt have enough points to be winning. 

That is correct.  What is your point?  Andy Dalton is 6th in wins among all QBs since 2011.

(11-13-2018, 04:42 PM)fredtoast Wrote: So basically you make some vague allegations that don't really mean anything and claim Dalton proves they are true?

I have been a round and around with guys like you.  You all end up admitting that he is in the top half of the league in QBs and then try to act like that sucks and he should be replaced.

If you compare him with current active QBs his passer ranking is tenth

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_rating_active.htm

Since he entered the league in 2011 he is 10th in passing yards, 9th in passing tds, 2nd in rushing tds by a QB, 2nd in "game winning drives" (defined by ProFootballReference.com), and 6th in "4th quarter comebacks" ProFootballReference.com).

Dalton has a very high ceiling.  When he is good he is very good.  Since 2011 only 6 QBs have more games with a 125+ passer rating than Dalton's 14, and only 6 other QBs have posted a full season passer rating higher than Dalton's 106.2 in 2015.

What kills Dalton is the number of very bad games he has.  Since 2011 no QB has more games with a passer rating under 70 than Dalton.

Fred, you are focusing on pointless stats when a SB is what is needed and wanted by the fans. You know full what I was referring to or maybe you really haven't been following the Bengals very closely over the years, but live in the stat book to try to understand what goes on on the field.

If a team's GOAL is to win a SB, why would it not try to upgrade the QB position when the one you have has produced 1 TD, 6 INTs, 4 FUMs, 0 wins and 4 losses in the playoffs?

The answer is that you would. Mikey boy Brown doesn't really seem to care about a SB. I've never heard or read the guy say the words "Super Bowl is our goal this season" in any season, not ever. Have you?

Now not all of the bad in the playoffs has been on Dalton and I'm not implying that it was. The defense seemed to sleep except for the game against Houston where the defense scored our only TD in the game on Leon Hall's pick 6.

I can tell that Marvin wants to win, but I don't think he can. If Mikey boy Brown really wanted a SB he would have replaced Marv a long time ago and he'd have been screaming SB from the rafters, but he hasn't.

Dalton is here because he can generally win enough during the regular season to give us a shot at the playoffs. But he's never, that I can recall, put this team on his back and willed it to victory. When AJ Green and his wide catch radius isn't out there Dalton really doesn't perform well.

There have been opportunities to upgrade at the QB position but the team has passed on them all.

With Mikey boy Brown it's more about who he's comfortable with. He's comfortable with Marvin. He gave Dalton the big contract, so that cemented him in that role as long as the team is getting close to the playoffs.

If you take yourself out of the stat book and look and see what is going on you will see what I'm talking about. If you watch the Carson Palmer, a Football Life, you'll get an insight into Mikey boy Brown and how he thinks. He refused Palmer's request to bring in more talent on multiple occasions.

I'm not saying that Dalton is a bad QB. I'm saying he's average Joe and he ain't gonna take this team to the promised land. Frankly, it would take the '85 Bears defense for me to believe we had a legit shot at a SB win with Dalton at QB.

(11-13-2018, 08:50 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: What primetime big game performance from Dalton makes you believe? I have tried over and over a to stay on the band wagon. I have not seen enough clutch or ability to dominate. Sure you can win with a mediocre QB. But everything else has to be perfect. I think it is easier to find 1 player than everything else with your team to play out perfectly for a season.

You have to be losing to qualify for a game winning drive. Which means you didnt have enough points to be winning. 

The most important position on the field. And we have spent barely any draft capital on competition since Andy has been here. 

NATI gets it.

(11-13-2018, 09:26 PM)fredtoast Wrote: 2015 on the road against 8-1 Cardinals.  Down by 10 with just over 6 minutes left.  Dalton drives us 60 yds for a td in just 2 minutes.  Gets the ball back on his own 15 with less than 3 minutes left and drives for game tying FG.  We don't call a single running play in those last 2 drives.  It was all Dalton against the NUMBER ONE DEFENSE in the league.

The Cards defense recorded 7 QB hits on Dalton and sacked him 4 times but he still complete 22 of 39 for 315 yds, 2 tds, and zero ints.  He also rushed 8 times for 34 yards and 2 third down conversions.

Setting the bar low with an L? 

Maybe if instead of the FG it was a TD i would have said that was a decent example. 

We settled for a FG and lost.

(11-13-2018, 10:10 PM)BengalChris Wrote: But he's never, that I can recall, put this team on his back and willed it to victory. 

In 2013 Dalton and the Bengals trailed Rodgers Division Champion Packers 30-14 with 5 minutes left in the third quarter.  Dalton then goes 9-10 for 132 yards and 2 tds leading the Bengals to a 34-30 win.

In 2015 Dalton trailed Wilson's Seahawks (who had the #1 defense in the league that year) 24-7 in the 4th quarter.  Dalton goes 13-16 for 135 yds with a passing td and a rushing td.  Bengals score on their last three possessions in regulation and win 27-24 in overtime.

(11-13-2018, 10:15 PM)NATI BENGALS Wrote: Setting the bar low with an L? 

Maybe if instead of the FG it was a TD i would have said that was a decent example. 

We settled for a FG and lost.

So you blame Dalton because he does not play defense?

Two scoring drives without a single run in the final 6 minutes of the fourth quarter against the #1 defense in the league and you blame Dalton for our defensive collapse.

Typical hater desperation.

(11-13-2018, 10:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: In 2013 Dalton and the Bengals trailed Rodgers Division Champion Packers 30-14 with 5 minutes left in the third quarter.  Dalton then goes 9-10 for 132 yards and 2 tds leading the Bengals to a 34-30 win.

In 2015 Dalton trailed Wilson's Seahawks (who had the #1 defense in the league that year) 24-7 in the 4th quarter.  Dalton goes 13-16 for 135 yds with a passing td and a rushing td.  Bengals score on their last three possessions in regulation and win 27-24 in overtime.

Ah, NO. The Packers were running out the clock and it was the defense that forced a fumble and returned it for a TD and the win. The defense then turned around and stopped Rodgers on 4th down to end the game.

Sure, Dalton has had a number of very good games. I've never said he was a bad QB.

(11-13-2018, 10:10 PM)BengalChris Wrote: When AJ Green and his wide catch radius isn't out there Dalton really doesn't perform well.

Except when he passed for a season high 373 yards against the Ravens his rookie year.

Or when he posted a 116.6 rating with 252 yds against the Falcons in '14.

Or when he posted a 93 passer rating in a huge prime time victory against the Broncos #3 ranked defense in '14

Or when he threw for 323 yards and a 93.5 rating against the Panthers top ten defense in '14

When Green was out in 2016 Dalton pasted a 100+ passer rating against the Eagles (130.0), Browns (112.1) and Ravens (101.2).


That is seven pretty damn good games among the 11 that Green has missed.

(11-13-2018, 10:44 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Ah, NO. The Packers were running out the clock and it was the defense that forced a fumble and returned it for a TD and the win. The defense then turned around and stopped Rodgers on 4th down to end the game.

That td was only "game winning" because Dalton had brought the team from down by 16 to within three thanks to his 9-10 for 132 yds and 2 tds.

(11-13-2018, 10:54 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That td was only "game winning" because Dalton had brought the team from down by 16 to within three thanks to his 9-10 for 132 yds and 2 tds.

Like I said, Dalton has had some very good games. Doesn't make him a SB QB though.

(11-13-2018, 10:44 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Sure, Dalton has had a number of very good games. I've never said he was a bad QB.

You never said he was good either.


But that was when you were ignorant of the fact that he has put the team on his back and willed them to victory before.

Maybe your opinion will change the more educated you become..

(11-13-2018, 10:56 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Like I said, Dalton has had some very good games. Doesn't make him a SB QB though.

Why not?

(11-13-2018, 10:59 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Why not?

Why? is a better question.

I've already stated the case as to why he isn't, and it comes down to the fact that he not only didn't make it, he failed miserably on each attempt, and if memory serves, he's tied for the worst playoff record in NFL history. Marvin Lewis holds the NFL worst playoff record for coaches. That's double worst records. But Mikey is comfortable with them.

In fact, not only have I illustrated why Dalton is not a SB QB, I've also layout exactly why he's still the team's QB and why Marvin is still the head coach.

(11-13-2018, 11:12 PM)BengalChris Wrote: In fact, not only have I illustrated why Dalton is not a SB QB, I've also layout exactly why he's still the team's QB and why Marvin is still the head coach.

All you did was make up a BS claim that Mike Brown does not want to win a super bowl.  Kind of like the way you made up the claim that Dalton had never put the team on his back and willed them to victory.

You said Mike Brown has never said he wasn't to win a Super Bowl, but here is a direct quote from Mike in a letter to fans in 2016

"My passion is to bring Cincinnati a much-deserved NFL championship and you have my pledge that our organization is hard at work with this goal in mind."


So you have not "illustrated" anything except how little you know.  You just make up stuff and claim it is true.