(11-19-2018, 12:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: 11 receptions for 145 yards and 4 TD's thru 7 games are not good numbers.

So he's on pace for 25 receptions and 350 yards. That's terrible for a 1st Round pick in Year 2.

I have come to the conclusion that his lack of production has a lot more with Andy's inability to hit him in stride than his ability to get open.  Yes, he has missed a bunch of time.  But Andy just can't throw worth a shit to this guy and when he has thrown him good passes, he has caught them. 

And Lazor has positively sukked at finding ways to use him.

(11-19-2018, 12:48 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: 11 receptions for 145 yards and 4 TD's thru 7 games are not good numbers.

So he's on pace for 25 receptions and 350 yards. That's terrible for a 1st Round pick in Year 2.

Would like to see more yds for sure, but he scores TD’s at a nice rate, and there is clearly improvement from last year, and even earlier this year. He’s only played a total of 10 career games in the NFL. I get the frustration because of where he was picked, but I’m trying to be patient with him. I do see flashes of the guy that scored 19 TD’s his final year of college.

Haslet by far we give the guy 4th and 5th round picks to work with and expect the best LB core in the NFL. Haslet does not get to chose which LB play or which backers get cut that falls in the lap of Marvin.

(11-19-2018, 10:28 AM)fortyyearfan Wrote: I want a super bowl victory,and no one on this team or in this organization will ever get that done.We are doomed to see awlful football FOREVER.Fifty years and counting.Its just insane.They will struggle to beat the browns and believe that.

Which has what exactly to do with the original question?

(11-19-2018, 01:18 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Haslet by far we give the guy 4th and 5th round picks to work with and expect the best LB core in the NFL. Haslet does not get to chose which LB play or which backers get cut that falls in the lap of Marvin.

Obviously nobody expected the best LB core in the league, or even anything close. That’s silly. Not allowing them to be historically bad is pretty reasonable though. We’ve never had good LBers under Marvin (other than Burfict). And they weren’t this bad until Haslett took over.

I think Ross is very up and down, so it's hard to tell for me. On one hand, he does a lot more than a typical speedster receiver (great contested TD yesterday, good sideline catches and catches over the middle). But on the other hand, I still am annoyed at how there is always a corner right on his hip. Dude isn't burning enough people.

I guess I'll go Williams? I don't really like him either though lol. That's where our team is at.

The obvious one is Dalton, but that's already been mentioned, so I'll go with Cordy Glenn. Sure, he's not Whit. He's also not Ogbuehi. The line still has a ways to go before it's even average, but it's surely better than last year. We're on pace for 34 sacks (rounded up) after giving up 41 and 39 in the previous 2 years.

Btw, seems kinda silly blaming Dalton for Ross coming along slowly, when Dalton has gotten better production out of guys like Jerome Simpson and Armon Boldin Binns. He also got similar production (and a much better completion rate) with Cody Core just last year. I loved the Ross pick, but he was quite a bit more green than I expected.

He obviously has some red zone ability, but he needs a lot of work in pretty much every other area, from route running to reading the ball in the air and adjusting his speed to make the catch (or at least be in the vicinity). People don't seem to understand that deep ball success is as much on the receiver as it is the QB.

(11-19-2018, 11:14 AM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: And 4 TD’s (that could easily be double that).

His injury issues are definitely annoying, and he had some issues early in the season causing turnovers, but he absolutely doesn’t deserve the level of hate he gets.

Two things I’ll say in his defense is Dalton isn’t the greatest match for him, and we don’t use him enough, or in the right ways.

Just like people always say they want to see what Dalton could do on another team, I wonder what Ross could do with a better deep ball QB and a line that could give him time to get down the field.

And just to be accurate, it’s 11 rec for 145 yds. In 7 games.

Yep, Ross gets the most hate and doesn't deserve it. 4 TD's, yet people conveniently leave out that part.

Shawn did have a couple great games against the Ravens but he still lost us a game to the Panthers pretty much
with his penalties. Just needs to be more consistent, you get inflated tackle numbers for a Safety when the LB's
are this bad.

Dalton will always get the shade, he does what he can and does a good job of it.

(11-19-2018, 02:16 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The obvious one is Dalton, but that's already been mentioned, so I'll go with Cordy Glenn. Sure, he's not Whit. He's also not Ogbuehi. The line still has a ways to go before it's even average, but it's surely better than last year. We're on pace for 34 sacks (rounded up) after giving up 41 and 39 in the previous 2 years.

Btw, seems kinda silly blaming Dalton for Ross coming along slowly, when Dalton has gotten better production out of guys like Jerome Simpson and Armon Boldin Binns. He also got similar production (and a much better completion rate) with Cody Core just last year. I loved the Ross pick, but he was quite a bit more green than I expected.

He obviously has some red zone ability, but he needs a lot of work in pretty much every other area, from route running to reading the ball in the air and adjusting his speed to make the catch (or at least be in the vicinity). People don't seem to understand that deep ball success is as much on the receiver as it is the QB.

I agree but you have to give Dalton some blame for underthrowing Ross twice last week against the Saints...

It's been between Williams and Ross.

I have to go with Williams since he has made a lot of good plays this year, and clearly gets a lot of attitude - including from me.

But Ross is a close second.   He has issues and I haven't had the time to watch yesterday's game to see why he seemed unable to get separation.   Don't know if he's getting jammed at the line or catching up with dbs who have already dropped into coverage and anticipated the catch point.

But he's been overthrown a lot.  if the season gets out of hand I'd be throwing him a LOT of balls to get him up to speed.

(11-19-2018, 04:07 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: I agree but you have to give Dalton some blame for underthrowing Ross twice last week against the Saints...

The first underthrow was a terrible throw, but there was safety help over the top, so I don't think that would've been complete either way.

I'm guessing the 2nd throw you're talking about was the deep out? Dalton was feeling the heat and the throw was a bit off, but it didn't seem like Ross wanted to lay out for it either.

Either way, a couple bad throws isn't why Ross isn't producing. When you have only 11 catches on 29 targets, it's a problem. That's a terrible ratio. I've never seen Dalton struggle to get any WR the ball like that, so I give Andy more benefit of the doubt than Ross.

(11-19-2018, 05:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The first underthrow was a terrible throw, but there was safety help over the top, so I don't think that would've been complete either way.

I'm guessing the 2nd throw you're talking about was the deep out? Dalton was feeling the heat and the throw was a bit off, but it didn't seem like Ross wanted to lay out for it either.

Either way, a couple bad throws isn't why Ross isn't producing. When you have only 11 catches on 29 targets, it's a problem. That's a terrible ratio. I've never seen Dalton struggle to get any WR the ball like that, so I give Andy more benefit of the doubt than Ross.

I'm out of benefit of the doubt for Andy.  And his coordinator, as it turns out, is a bum.  Andy has been done in by the lousy play calling and the terrible line and it shows.  And has done an altogether lousy job of throwing the ball to Ross.  Throw him a decent pass and he catches it.  Stop chucking it down the sidelines to him into double coverage and get the ball to him in other ways, like any moderately decent coordinator would do.

It's not all Andy's fault but it is far from all Ross' fault.  They have been dreadful in their ability to use him.

If it's me, I turn over the offense to Hue.  Lazor is horrible.

Williams looks better from time to time this season and has held onto some picks.

He used to be a part of these DBs who couldn't catch shit if they were standing under a sewer pipe drain.

(11-19-2018, 05:45 PM)McC Wrote: I'm out of benefit of the doubt for Andy.  And his coordinator, as it turns out, is a bum.  Andy has been done in by the lousy play calling and the terrible line and it shows.  And has done an altogether lousy job of throwing the ball to Ross.  Throw him a decent pass and he catches it.  Stop chucking it down the sidelines to him into double coverage and get the ball to him in other ways, like any moderately decent coordinator would do.

It's not all Andy's fault but it is far from all Ross' fault.  They have been dreadful in their ability to use him.

If it's me, I turn over the offense to Hue.  Lazor is horrible.

This I can agree with. Throw it to him in the flat. Use his speed on some crossers. Get him comfortable. Throw him some easy bones. 

They're using him like he's AJ Green...and he's not.

Funny that some people still think every other NFL QB complete all their deep passes while Dalton is the only one that ever misses.


According to PFF from '06-'16 Dalton had the tenth highest rating on passes thrown more than 20 yards past the line of scrimmage, and in 2017 he ranked 8th.

Williams rates out at 62.9 on PFF and that's good enough for the #62 safety.

Interestingly Fej has been playing more and he rates at 88.5 still.

Bates is 83.2 which is the #6 safety .

(11-19-2018, 06:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: This I can agree with. Throw it to him in the flat. Use his speed on some crossers. Get him comfortable. Throw him some easy bones. 

They're using him like he's AJ Green...and he's not.

A feature of ML led teams. "This is what we're going to do come hell or high water" no consideration for what the players abilities are. Execute what I say or we'll get better players.

(11-19-2018, 01:18 PM)BengalsBong Wrote: Haslet by far we give the guy 4th and 5th round picks to work with and expect the best LB core in the NFL. Haslet does not get to chose which LB play or which backers get cut that falls in the lap of Marvin.

Ever since Haslett has been here our Linebackers have been out of position and missing tackles.

If anything he deserves more hate, i don't care where your Linebackers are drafted, they atleast need to be
somewhat in position and have some semblance of knowing how to tackle. Haslett is terrible and needs to be
replaced, London Fletcher one of the most underrated LB's of all time didn't like Haslett in Washington.

(11-19-2018, 05:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The first underthrow was a terrible throw, but there was safety help over the top, so I don't think that would've been complete either way.

I'm guessing the 2nd throw you're talking about was the deep out? Dalton was feeling the heat and the throw was a bit off, but it didn't seem like Ross wanted to lay out for it either.

Either way, a couple bad throws isn't why Ross isn't producing. When you have only 11 catches on 29 targets, it's a problem. That's a terrible ratio. I've never seen Dalton struggle to get any WR the ball like that, so I give Andy more benefit of the doubt than Ross.

Always agree with you Shake, not here. Have to put that ball out in front of the speed, never behind.

(11-19-2018, 05:45 PM)McC Wrote: I'm out of benefit of the doubt for Andy.  And his coordinator, as it turns out, is a bum.  Andy has been done in by the lousy play calling and the terrible line and it shows.  And has done an altogether lousy job of throwing the ball to Ross.  Throw him a decent pass and he catches it.  Stop chucking it down the sidelines to him into double coverage and get the ball to him in other ways, like any moderately decent coordinator would do.

It's not all Andy's fault but it is far from all Ross' fault.  They have been dreadful in their ability to use him.

If it's me, I turn over the offense to Hue.  Lazor is horrible.

Damn, liked Lazor earlier this season. What happened?

(11-20-2018, 02:28 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Always agree with you Shake, not here. Have to put that ball out in front of the speed, never behind.

Never said you should underthrow deep passes. Just providing context. 

Those 2 particular throws had possible reasons why they were off. And considering how long Ross spent in the dog house and how Andy has NEVER struggled with other receivers like this, the logical conclusion is that these struggles are more on Ross than Dalton. Especially seeing how many INT's Ross has caused.

Fwiw, Dalton has a 47.9 rating while targeting Ross. I've never seen him have a rating that low with any other WR in 8 years. Like McC said, they aren't doing anything creative to get Ross the ball, but it still shouldn't be that bad.

(11-20-2018, 02:41 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Never said you should underthrow deep passes. Just providing context. 

Those 2 particular throws had possible reasons why they were off. And considering how long Ross spent in the dog house and how Andy has NEVER struggled with other receivers like this, the logical conclusion is that these struggles are more on Ross than Dalton. Especially seeing how many INT's Ross has caused.

Fwiw, Dalton has a 47.9 rating while targeting Ross. I've never seen him have a rating that low with any other WR in 8 years. Like McC said, they aren't doing anything creative to get Ross the ball, but it still shouldn't be that bad.

Yeah, Ross definately needs to stay healthy so they can get on the same page. But i have atleast been encouraged
by Ross the last two weeks. One of the few bright spots on this team. The coaching is really the problem.