(11-19-2018, 07:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am saying Marvin does not get to sign or cut the players he wants to.  Mike has that control.

You honestly think Marvin says "No, we never need any quality free agents to fill any holes on this roster"?

I think you might be fooling yourself here Fred. Marvin gets a say in who gets cut or picked up. 

(11-19-2018, 07:49 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I think you might be fooling yourself here Fred. Marvin gets a say in who gets cut or picked up. 

Yeah i think so too

(11-19-2018, 07:40 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am saying Marvin does not get to sign or cut the players he wants to.  Mike has that control.

You honestly think Marvin says "No, we never need any quality free agents to fill any holes on this roster"?

So, who gets the credit for the player moves that have worked out successfully? 

(11-19-2018, 07:24 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  Fact is Fred Marvin get horribly outcoached by all the top teams in the league 9X out of 10.

Total Bull Sh*t.

Despite being handicapped by Mike Brown Marvin has won more games against teams that finish with winning records (40) than all but 5 other teams in the league since 2003.  Marvin has the 13th best winning percentage against those teams and the 15th best winning percentage against playoff teams.

And are you seriously trying to claim that Mike Browns action as owner have had zero effect on the Bengals winning percentage?  You really blame every single loss on the Bengals coaching instead of lack of talent?  Seems to me I have heard you say something else during the free agency periods.

Marvin is not an elite coach, but considering what he has accomplished under the worst coach in the league he has to be considered a very good coach.

(11-19-2018, 07:49 PM)sandwedge Wrote: I think you might be fooling yourself here Fred. Marvin gets a say in who gets cut or picked up. 

(11-19-2018, 07:53 PM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: Yeah i think so too

What makes you say that?  Personally I think there have been MANY times that Marvin wanted a player that Mike would not sign.

And obviously you don't remember what Marvin said about Chris Henry.

(11-19-2018, 07:57 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: So, who gets the credit for the player moves that have worked out successfully? 

Hard to say.

I don't think you are getting what I am saying.  I believe Marvin has a big say in who we sign, but I seriously doubt he gets his first choice.

I am not saying blame Mike for the bad signings and give Marvin credit for the good ones.  I am talking about blaming Mike for the player we DON'T sign.

Again I seem to remember you complaining about Mike Browns free agency policy during the offseason.  Amazing how you all forget about that when you start ripping Marvin.

(11-19-2018, 08:06 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What makes you say that?  Personally I think there have been MANY times that Marvin wanted a player that Mike would not sign.

And obviously you don't remember what Marvin said about Chris Henry.

“I’ve had a lot of say in personnel since I got here, so I’ve never voiced that or inferred that to anyone.”


-Marvin Lewis, April, 2018

(11-19-2018, 08:11 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Hard to say.

I don't think you are getting what I am saying.  I believe Marvin has a big say in who we sign, but I seriously doubt he gets his first choice.

I am not saying blame Mike for the bad signings and give Marvin credit for the good ones.  I am talking about blaming Mike for the player we DON'T sign.

Again I seem to remember you complaining about Mike Browns free agency policy during the offseason.  Amazing how you all forget about that when you start ripping Marvin.

Yeah, I've been complaining about Mike's approach to free agency forever. You know who else in on record as saying he believes in a conservative approach to free agency? Marvin Lewis. As I said this past offseason, I think he and Mike are very similar in their thinking about free agency and that's part of the problem.

(11-19-2018, 08:13 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: “I’ve had a lot of say in personnel since I got here, so I’ve never voiced that or inferred that to anyone.”


-Marvin Lewis, April, 2018

We have no idea what Marvin considers "a lot".  Mike may have never forced a player on him that he does not want, but that does not mean Marvin was fine with never signing any good free agents or letting Whitworth walk.  Even if Marvin approved of every player they evr signed that does not mean he got his first choice or that we didn't let guys walk who he wanted to keep.

(11-19-2018, 08:17 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: Yeah, I've been complaining about Mike's approach to free agency forever. You know who else in on record as saying he believes in a conservative approach to free agency? Marvin Lewis. As I said this past offseason, I think he and Mike are very similar in their thinking about free agency and that's part of the problem.

Lots of coaches believe in a conservative approach to free agency.  Even I believe in a conservative approach to free agency.  But there is no way in hell Marvin Lewis is the reason we never sign any top free agents.

Got any quotes of Marvin complaining about having Pro Bowlers Sam Adams, Michael McCrary, and Rod Woodson on his Baltimore defense?

I'd say Marvin has the most influence on who we sign/cut once he starts paying their salary. Outside of that; he's just a voice in Mikey's ear.

Hell even Parcells said: "You want me to make the dinner, let me pick out the groceries".

(11-19-2018, 08:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Total Bull Sh*t.

Despite being handicapped by Mike Brown Marvin has won more games against teams that finish with winning records (40) than all but 5 other teams in the league since 2003.  Marvin has the 13th best winning percentage against those teams and the 15th best winning percentage against playoff teams.

And are you seriously trying to claim that Mike Browns action as owner have had zero effect on the Bengals winning percentage?  You really blame every single loss on the Bengals coaching instead of lack of talent?  Seems to me I have heard you say something else during the free agency periods.

Marvin is not an elite coach, but considering what he has accomplished under the worst coach in the league he has to be considered a very good coach.

It's kind of odd that we agree 100% on this...but we do.

We have the smallest scouting staff in the NFL and the coaches do a lot of the scouting. People wish we hired Coughlin, but there were rumblings at the time that Coughlin had disagreement over the organizational structure...aka he wanted a GM.

(11-19-2018, 05:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Name a coach who has made it to the Super Bowl with out a single top tier free agent on his roster.

I don't know of any.  Marvin has had some talented teams but they all had holes that needed to be filled before they could make Super Bowl run.  The 2015 team might have made it if Dalton had not been injured.  The '14 team went into the playoffs with Kevin Brock starting at TE and Rex Burkehead at WR.  The 2013 team is probably the only one that could have come close to a super bowl run.

The Bengals had agreed to terms with Warren Sapp when he was still in his prime and Marvin nixed the deal at the last minute, telling MB that he didn't think Sapp was worth the money.  Both Marvin and Sapp have confirmed this.  Sapp went on to sign with Oakland, instead.  Laverneous Coles, Antonio Bryant, Antwan Odom, Tory James, John Thornton, and Kevin Hardy were all big name signings.  They had Nick Fairley in and dropped him like a bad habit when the Bucs cut MJ.

I'm not going to say MB is a great owner, but he signed big name FA's before Marvin and he signed them in the early years of Marvin's tenure.  As the team started drafting better and the talent on the roster got better, this gradually slowed and the team focused more on resigning their own players.  It's likely that Marvin was pounding his fist on MB's desk for more talent to be competitive quickly, and Mikey obliged.  

Not being more aggressive in FA feels a lot like Marvin's doing.  Look at his coaching staff.  He seems more than willing to promote guys from within as long as the unit isn't embarrassing.  Look at the assistants that went elsewhere and boomeranged back here when they got canned.  Look at the players who left and got resigned after they got cut.  Shawn Williams got a nice extension and was inserted into the starting lineup after 3 years as a backup.  Also, look at his his maddening resistance to playing young players that show promise, keeping them tied to the bench in favor of mediocre vets.

Marvin Lewis has a losing record since 2016. I don’t see this trend reversing itself.

(11-19-2018, 07:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes.  It is harder to win in the playoffs than it is to make the playoffs.

Surely you don't disagree with that do you?

1. So you think we've had just enough talent to make the playoffs 7 times, but never quite enough talent to not get embarrassed in the playoffs? Do you realize how logically unlikely that seems? 

2. So we've had enough talent to beat teams like the Patriots, Seahawks, Packers, Ravens, etc in regular season, but not enough talent to beat the Jets, Texans, Colts and Chargers in the playoffs? 

Maybe Homer Rice has a son who wants to be head coach - no experience required.

(11-19-2018, 07:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No.  It is possible to make the playoffs multiple times and be the underdog every time.

Marvin has been the underdog in most of his playoff games.  He clearly should have won was after the '13 season, but that is not enough to say the problem has always been the coaching instead of the talent level.

You do realize that underdogs win every week in the NFL right? 

And how do we know that Marvin's playoff reputation didn't play into the Vegas odds for at least some of these?

(11-19-2018, 08:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Total Bull Sh*t.

Despite being handicapped by Mike Brown Marvin has won more games against teams that finish with winning records (40) than all but 5 other teams in the league since 2003.  Marvin has the 13th best winning percentage against those teams and the 15th best winning percentage against playoff teams.

And are you seriously trying to claim that Mike Browns action as owner have had zero effect on the Bengals winning percentage?  You really blame every single loss on the Bengals coaching instead of lack of talent?  Seems to me I have heard you say something else during the free agency periods.

Marvin is not an elite coach, but considering what he has accomplished under the worst coach in the league he has to be considered a very good coach.

Mike Brown's team, despite being handicapped by Marvin Lewis, has finished middle of the pack in winning percentage against playoff teams because Marvin Lewis can't beat playoff teams.

I'm in agreement with Fred here.  Marvin Lewis, Andy Dalton......they aren't the problem.  The problem starts at the top with the son of Paul. until he's gone, I don't expect to see any changes, whoever is on the sidelines coaching.  We could have Lombardi, Belicheck, Parcells, and Hank Stram on our coaching staff and we'll still see the same results I believe. we need to do some serious work in our FO, scouting dept., etc,  Until that happens, which I doubt we will ever see with the current family in charge, you might as well rename us the Bungles. 


until then, I'm done giving my hard earned money this organization.  I cannot get fulled invested until I see wide sweeping changes from within the organization.  No tickets, no merchandise, no jersey's, not a drop of my $$$ will go into the pockets of the Brown family as long as I can help it.  


as for the OP, if we're dreaming, lets throw Nick Saban in the hat.  Why not?

(11-20-2018, 03:50 PM)BengalHawk62 Wrote: I'm in agreement with Fred here.  Marvin Lewis, Andy Dalton......they aren't the problem.  The problem starts at the top with the son of Paul. until he's gone, I don't expect to see any changes, whoever is on the sidelines coaching.  We could have Lombardi, Belicheck, Parcells, and Hank Stram on our coaching staff and we'll still see the same results I believe. we need to do some serious work in our FO, scouting dept., etc,  Until that happens, which I doubt we will ever see with the current family in charge, you might as well rename us the Bungles. 


until then, I'm done giving my hard earned money this organization.  I cannot get fulled invested until I see wide sweeping changes from within the organization.  No tickets, no merchandise, no jersey's, not a drop of my $$$ will go into the pockets of the Brown family as long as I can help it.  


as for the OP, if we're dreaming, lets throw Nick Saban in the hat.  Why not?

Mike is to blame for keeping Marv.  Other than that, it's all Marv's fault.  He is the shit show leader.