The franchise itself would be worth hundreds of millions more he invested in the brand. He is a complete business failure for not seeing it.

(11-20-2018, 02:11 AM)BengalChris Wrote: After the lost decade of the 90's it's easy to lose sight of what a good Bengals team looks like.

Keep in mind that there are plenty of us who actually were too young or not born yet to remember the Bengals before Mike Brown took over. So all we know are mediocrity and failure.

(11-20-2018, 11:37 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: While I agree with the bulk of what you're saying the thread title is the fail not Andy Dalton.

I'm not getting into an AD debate but is he elite ? NO  But it was the same thing with Carson Palmer, John Kitna, McCarron and on and on. My point is it's not the players ! Your post would have been a lot better had you not decided to bash AD HE'S NOT THE PROBLEM

It's nail meet hammer with the horrible GM and a awful HC.

Honestly, I'm not sure any Bengals QB can become elite, at least not for very long, while Mike Brown is running the team and Marvin Lewis is the coach.

The purpose of my post was not to bash Dalton, but more to show the vast difference in the Bengals before Mike and with Mike. In a Paul Brown world either Marvin or Dalton or both would be long gone by now. You can't put up NFL all-time worst in the playoffs and not have price to pay though.

The Bengals are just not capable of going toe to toe with the best NFL teams and they really haven't been since Mike Brown took over. Sure there have been instances where the team looked like it was going to be that team, but they always find a way to fade.

Personally I don't care who the QB is. Really doesn't matter to me at all. If the team is contender, that is.

The NFL rules of today skew the stats of QBs and make it much easier for them compared to the days of Kenny Anderson and even Boomer Esiason. Looking at the list of the top 20 total scoring games in NFL history, 9 of them have come in the last 6 years, 4 of them in 2018 and the season isn't even over yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_scoring_NFL_games

(11-20-2018, 03:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Keep in mind that there are plenty of us who actually were too young or not born yet to remember the Bengals before Mike Brown took over. So all we know are mediocrity and failure.

Just know that there was a day when the Bengals were contenders. The consistent, year after year of failure after failure, has only been around since Mike Brown took over.

There were bad season before, but the ship would be righted, coaches were fired, players were sent packing. If a 1st round pick flopped he'd be traded to somewhere else or just cut out right. There was no, we'll all feel sorry for the guy and keep him around.

Mike Brown's ownership of the Bengals was saved by the NFL's revenue sharing policies he championed. Now he makes millions from other team's successes. 

(11-20-2018, 03:49 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: The franchise itself would be worth hundreds of millions more he invested in the brand. He is a complete business failure for not seeing it.

Clearly you seem to understand that it's not about winning for Mike Brown.

(11-20-2018, 01:34 PM)Whatever Wrote:  The '09 game against the Jets with a rookie Mark Sanchez after we got to scout them with our backups should have been a win. 

That team was smoke and mirrors.  After Chris Henry went down with injury in the 8th game our entire offense collapsed.  Through the first 9 weeks of the season (8 games) we had the #12 offense.  Over the last 8 games our offense was ranked dead last.  

After we lost Henry we beat the Steelers without scoring a single offensive TD.  After that we went 3-5 with no wins over a team better than 5-11.  We struggled to beat the 4-12 Chiefs in week 16 needing a td in the final 2 minutes to win.

Just making the playoffs was an impressive feat for Marvin that year.  A majority of our O-line was undrafted free agents with no starting experience (Cook, Living, Roland), we had no receiving threat at TE (Foschi, Coats) or RB (Benson) and after Henry went down we only had one decent WR.

(11-20-2018, 01:34 PM)Whatever Wrote:   The first Houston loss when they had to trot their 3rd string QB out there should have been a win. 

We had a team that was predicted to be the worst in the entire league.  Houston had the #2 defense in the league and the #2 rushing attack.  They were a 4 point favorite playing at home.

Again, Marvin should be praised for even making the playoffs with that team.

(11-20-2018, 03:48 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Basically you have nothing to go on other than your "feelings" about what you "think" "seems" to be happening.
How about some actual facts.

Mike Brown as GM with Marvin Lewis as HC.... 526 win%...15 seasons....5  losing seasons...7 playoff seasons
Mike Brown with 3 other head coaches...……...286 win%...12 seasons....11 losing seasons...0 playoff seasons

Way to misdirect Fred.

Marvin has a certain aptitude as a Head Coach that exceeds the 3 you mentioned.

Mike has a certain lack of aptitude as a GM.

I have little doubt that Mike has been ceding decisions and influence to Marvin, especially in 2018, to get Marvin to stay.

Did Mike force Teryl Austin down Marvin's throat, Fred -OR- did Marvin hand pick Teryl ?

That one decision alone has tanked the Defense.

Which one made that decision, Fred ?

Was Teryl Austin Mike's guy or Marvin's guy, Fred ?

Was poor old Marvin hamstrung by his GM into hiring Teryl, Fred ?

(11-20-2018, 03:53 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Keep in mind that there are plenty of us who actually were too young or not born yet to remember the Bengals before Mike Brown took over. So all we know are mediocrity and failure.

The pre-1991 Cincinnati Bengals were amazing with two Super Bowl appearances.

(11-20-2018, 04:16 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Clearly you seem to understand that it's not about winning for Mike Brown.

It never has been. It has been about milking the system. Mikey takes few if any risks, he lets the other owners do that and he reaps the net gains. However, he could make a lot more if he actually worked the brand and team. But he is unwilling or incapable. There simply is no other answer for 26 years of no playoff wins. 

(11-20-2018, 04:28 PM)depthchart Wrote: Did Mike force Teryl Austin down Marvin's throat, Fred -OR- did Marvin hand pick Teryl ?

That one decision alone has tanked the Defense.

Which one made that decision, Fred ?

Was Teryl Austin Mike's guy or Marvin's guy, Fred ?

Was poor old Marvin hamstrung by his GM into hiring Teryl, Fred ?

I assume it was Marvin's decision, but Marvin has also selected multiple coordinators that did so well they got head coaching gigs (Frazier, Gruden, Zimmer).

I don't think Mike has handicapped Marvin at all with his coaching decisions, but I don't know for sure.  I think the worst damage Mike has done has been his refusal to sign decent free agents to fill holes in our roster.  That lack of talent has reduced Marvin's ability to win games.

(11-20-2018, 04:28 PM)Fan_in_Kettering Wrote: The pre-1991 Cincinnati Bengals were amazing with two Super Bowl appearances.

I wasn't saying those of us don't know about how good the teams were back then, I'm saying we never saw it first-hand.

(11-20-2018, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I assume it was Marvin's decision, but Marvin has also selected multiple coordinators that did so well they got head coaching gigs (Frazier, Gruden, Zimmer).

I don't think Mike has handicapped Marvin at all with his coaching decisions, but I don't know for sure.  I think the worst damage Mike has done has been his refusal to sign decent free agents to fill holes in our roster.  That lack of talent has reduced Marvin's ability to win games.

Fair enough.

Mike does, however, spend money retaining players. (Dunlap/Atkins extended recently for example)

Jim Owczarski had a Post maybe last year showing that Mike isn't cheap when compared to all 31 other NFL Owners.

The Bengals were in the Top third of the NFL in spending over a recent span of time was Jim's point from what I remember.

The best case scenario would be that Mike has given Marvin more Power & Marvin can use that extra Power to set up the 2019 team to achieve success, since I'm pretty sure Marvin will be here in 2019.

Mike and Marvin have not won a championship so they have failed.

But when you win more games than most other teams and make the playoffs more than most other teams it is not an "epic: fail.

(11-20-2018, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Mike and Marvin have not won a championship so they have failed.

But when you win more games than most other teams and make the playoffs more than most other teams it is not an "epic: fail.

I agree with this but my question is as an owner, when should you revisit your decision making so that your brand isn't just good but great? I mean the Jaguars have played in more AFC Championship games then the Bengals in the last 20 years and they're not even that old of a franchise... When will the front office build a championship brand and not settle for being average? This is what fans are frustrated with...wish I had the answers but I'm just a fan...




WHO DEY!!!  

(11-20-2018, 04:00 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Honestly, I'm not sure any Bengals QB can become elite, at least not for very long, while Mike Brown is running the team and Marvin Lewis is the coach.

The purpose of my post was not to bash Dalton, but more to show the vast difference in the Bengals before Mike and with Mike. In a Paul Brown world either Marvin or Dalton or both would be long gone by now. You can't put up NFL all-time worst in the playoffs and not have price to pay though.

The Bengals are just not capable of going toe to toe with the best NFL teams and they really haven't been since Mike Brown took over. Sure there have been instances where the team looked like it was going to be that team, but they always find a way to fade.

Personally I don't care who the QB is. Really doesn't matter to me at all. If the team is contender, that is.

The NFL rules of today skew the stats of QBs and make it much easier for them compared to the days of Kenny Anderson and even Boomer Esiason. Looking at the list of the top 20 total scoring games in NFL history, 9 of them have come in the last 6 years, 4 of them in 2018 and the season isn't even over yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_highest_scoring_NFL_games

You have a good point.  Look at Ken Anderson.  He had some good seasons, but was being booed at home.  Enter Forrest Gregg.  Sometimes a change at the top is all that is needed to get players playing to the best of their abilities....i.e being set up for success.

(11-20-2018, 04:24 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That team was smoke and mirrors.  After Chris Henry went down with injury in the 8th game our entire offense collapsed.  Through the first 9 weeks of the season (8 games) we had the #12 offense.  Over the last 8 games our offense was ranked dead last.  

After we lost Henry we beat the Steelers without scoring a single offensive TD.  After that we went 3-5 with no wins over a team better than 5-11.  We struggled to beat the 4-12 Chiefs in week 16 needing a td in the final 2 minutes to win.

Just making the playoffs was an impressive feat for Marvin that year.  A majority of our O-line was undrafted free agents with no starting experience (Cook, Living, Roland), we had no receiving threat at TE (Foschi, Coats) or RB (Benson) and after Henry went down we only had one decent WR.



We had a team that was predicted to be the worst in the entire league.  Houston had the #2 defense in the league and the #2 rushing attack.  They were a 4 point favorite playing at home.

Again, Marvin should be praised for even making the playoffs with that team.

The Bengals had the league's #4 defense in '09.  You don't really want to start talking about offensive weapons when Jericho Cotchery was the Jets' #1 WR and the Bengals let the Jets backup RB, Shon.Greene, put 130+ on them that game.  Cole's was an ok #2 for Palmer.  The OL you're down on helped Benson rack up over 160 yards rushing on the #1 defense in the league.  The Bengals had a better team.  They were at home.  The Jets had a bust rookie QB.  The Bengals got to scout them the week prior in a game they had no stake in, but the Jets had to win to get in.  It doesn't get any better than that, but they were outcoached and they lost.

The Texans game is more debatable, but they let a 3rd string QB hang over 30 on them.  That team was not ready to play.

(11-20-2018, 04:00 PM)BengalChris Wrote: In a Paul Brown world either Marvin or Dalton or both would be long gone by now. You can't put up NFL all-time worst in the playoffs and not have price to pay though.

No offense, but you look silly when you just make stuff up and pretend it is true.

Through his first TEN years as a starter Ken Anderson had a worse winning percentage as a starter (.516) than Dalton (.580), had made the playoffs fewer times (2) and had not won a single postseason game.

According to the logic you keep trying to use it was IMPOSSIBLE for Ken Anderson to ever win a playoff game or take the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

Before 1981 Forrest Gregg had a losing record as head coach of the Bengals (24-33) and was coming off of back-to-back losing seasons

If you had been around in 1981 you would have been calling Paul Brown stupid for keeping those guys around when it had been proven that they could not win a playoff game.  Please stop acting like he agrees with your ridiculous argument.  He was not that dumb.

(11-20-2018, 06:39 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No offense, but you look silly when you just make stuff up and pretend it is true.

Through his first TEN years as a starter Ken Anderson had a worse winning percentage as a starter (.516) than Dalton (.580), had made the playoffs fewer times (2) and had not won a single postseason game.

According to the logic you keep trying to use it was IMPOSSIBLE for Ken Anderson to ever win a playoff game or take the Bengals to the Super Bowl.

Before 1981 Forrest Gregg had a losing record as head coach of the Bengals (24-33) and was coming off of back-to-back losing seasons

If you had been around in 1981 you would have been calling Paul Brown stupid for keeping those guys around when it had been proven that they could not win a playoff game.  Please stop acting like he agrees with your ridiculous argument.  He was not that dumb.

I dunno.....Forrest Gregg came in and had to clean up the Homer Rice debacle. He was 6-10 in his first season, then 12-4 and the AFC Champion in his 2nd season. That said, lots of people were ready to move on from Anderson....which proved to be the wrong call.

(11-20-2018, 04:38 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I assume it was Marvin's decision, but Marvin has also selected multiple coordinators that did so well they got head coaching gigs (Frazier, Gruden, Zimmer).

I don't think Mike has handicapped Marvin at all with his coaching decisions, but I don't know for sure.  I think the worst damage Mike has done has been his refusal to sign decent free agents to fill holes in our roster.  That lack of talent has reduced Marvin's ability to win games.

Teams that lack talent, but are well coached, play hard for 60 minutes.  However, they need some lucky breaks in the form of turnovers, officiating, etc to win.

Teams that have talent, but are poorly coached play balls out for the first half, then put it on cruise control for second half and have to hold off comebacks in the end.  Or, they sleepwalk through the first half and have to mount comebacks to win . They commit mental errors at costly times.

Sound familiar?

(11-20-2018, 06:36 PM)Whatever Wrote: The Bengals had the league's #4 defense in '09.  

Jets had the #1 defense.

(11-20-2018, 06:36 PM)Whatever Wrote:  You don't really want to start talking about offensive weapons when Jericho Cotchery was the Jets' #1 WR and the Bengals let the Jets backup RB, Shon.Greene, put 130+ on them that game. 

The Jets had the #1 rushing offense in the league.  Shon Green averaged 5 yards per carry in 2009 and went on to have two 1000 rushing seasons.

(11-20-2018, 06:36 PM)Whatever Wrote:  Cole's was an ok #2 for Palmer. 

Coles had only 21 catches over the last 8 games after Henry was injured and he never played another snap in the NFL after that Jets playoff game.

Here are Palmers numbers before and after Henry was injured

Before (8 games)...229 yd/g....14 td....83.5 rating
After   (9 games)….156 yd/g.... 8 td....73.5 rating

(11-20-2018, 06:36 PM)Whatever Wrote:    It doesn't get any better than that,

You can't think of anything better than playing the team with the #1 defense and the #1 running attack in the entire league?