It appears we have 1 of the worst slot corners in the league, yet I hear Dre is the issue in this forum and should be tarred, feathered and cut.

What to watch for in fantasy: Darqueze Dennard has been heavily targeted (23 percent of coverage snaps) and has struggled in coverage (0.38 fantasy points per snap) this season. Jarvis Landry aligns inside 71 percent of the time and has a shot to get back on track in Week 12

Is it fair to say dre and dennard was bad picks,i didnt like either coming out. And dennard was actually a star at michigan st.

It is complicated to measure a defensive back by fantasy points.  Patrick Peterson only has one season with more than 3 ints.  He is so good they don't throw at him.

The PFF individual rankings for CBs are also useless.

There are some objective stats out there like "yards per target", "completion percentage allowed", and "success rate", but like all stats you can't just use one. They are all limited. For example slot CBs will often have a lower "yards per target" just because they are usually covering shorter routes, just like power RBs will often have a lower average per carry because they are used in short yardage situations.  So you have to look at as many a possible.

And an interesting thing about coverage penalties.  The best CBs in the league are usually among the league leaders in penalties.  It doesn't sound right, but if you look at the yearly leaders you will usually bsee the Pro Bowl and All CBs near the top of the list.  My theory is that they get more penalties because they are closer to the receiver more often than lesser CBs who allow more seperation.

I have not really looked at the numbers for thhis season, but from the games I have watched all of our DBs have looked weak, but we have seen Jackson and Kirkpatrick play at a higher level, and Dennard has looked better.  I have no idea if the problem was scheme, or communication, or what, but the problem was not lack of skill in the players back there.

(11-24-2018, 02:47 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It is complicated to measute a defensive back by fantays points.  Patrick Peterson only has one season with more than 3 ints.  He is so good they don't throw at him.

The PFF individual rankings for CBs are also useless.

There are some stats out there like "yards per target", "completion percentage allowed", and "success rate", but like all stats you can't just use one because they are all limited.  It would be like sayiunbg the best RB is the best yards per carry even if the guy only only carries the ball 4 or 5 times a game.  For example slot CBs will often have a lower "yards per target" just because they are usually covering shorter routes.

And an interesting thing about coverage penalties.  The best CBs in the league are usually among the ;league leaders in penalties.  It doesn't sound right, but if you look at the yearly leaders you will usually bsee the Pro Bowl and All CBs near the top of the list.  My theory is that they get more penalties because they are closer to the receiver more often than lesser CBs who allow more seperation.

So how are we the casual fan supposed to rate CB's or any position as every rating is flawed. Maybe that is why the eye test is used so often with problem being some have more expert eyes and knowledge to do an eye test than others.

(11-24-2018, 02:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So how are we the casual fan supposed to rate CB's or any position as every rating is flawed. Maybe that is why the eye test is used so often with problem being some have more expert eyes and knowledge to do an eye test than others.

You have to utilize context. I can utilize the eye test the best I can but I will not know what the call made is. So I use advanced statistics the best I can to fill in the gaps. It doesn't help that our defensive scheme with Austin was terrible and the players clearly didn't believe in it

In a zone concept the team can have the corner play more back to not give up the big play. He gives up an 8 yard gain that happens on a flat route because of it. That hurts his numbers and counts as a catch against him even though he played it correctly. Just have to trust in what you're seeing on both ends. All 3 corners haven't been great this year but I have more trust in Dennard and WJ3 playing much better

(11-24-2018, 03:30 PM)eoxyod Wrote: You have to utilize context. I can utilize the eye test the best I can but I will not know what the call made is. So I use advanced statistics the best I can to fill in the gaps. It doesn't help that our defensive scheme with Austin was terrible and the players clearly didn't believe in it

In a zone concept the team can have the corner play more back to not give up the big play. He gives up an 8 yard gain that happens on a flat route because of it. That hurts his numbers and counts as a catch against him even though he played it correctly. Just have to trust in what you're seeing on both ends. All 3 corners haven't been great this year but I have more trust in Dennard and WJ3 playing much better

Which is good, since Dre has been downgraded to doubtful...

(11-24-2018, 05:14 PM)jfkbengals Wrote: Which is good, since Dre has been downgraded to doubtful...

I downgraded him to doubtful last year!

(11-24-2018, 02:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So how are we the casual fan supposed to rate CB's or any position as every rating is flawed. Maybe that is why the eye test is used so often with problem being some have more expert eyes and knowledge to do an eye test than others.

I love it when people say the PFF rankings are useless.

That said, Kirkpatrick's rating is 60.9 which is the #73 CB.

Dennard, 61.9 which is the #68 CB.

Jackson, 66.5 which is the #45 CB.

Phillips, 60.1 and not enough snaps to rate.

The ratings actually aren't terrible. They'd average to below average I'd say.

For giving up 500+ yards in 3 games in a row, I'd say the ratings are probably slightly higher than one would expect.

Our Safeties actually rate out pretty good overall too.

I really liked him coming out of the draft. Our coaching staff kinda hyped him up to. Marvin said something along the lines that he’s the most pro ready corner that’ he’s seen and I believe Mike Zimmer called him a “ Leon Hall clone”. He’s somewhat underachieved for a 1st round pick, he was buried on the depth chart his 1st year and has been pretty injury prone. I feel like he doesn’t get as much heat for underperforming because other 1st round picks like Ogbuehi have been so horrific. And other high round picks like Fisher and Ross take some of the heat off him. He’s not terrible, ok at best based off a causal viewing standpoint not fantasy wise.

(11-24-2018, 05:50 PM)lone bengal Wrote: I really liked him coming out of the draft.  Our coaching staff kinda hyped him up to. Marvin said something along the lines that he’s the most pro ready corner that’ he’s seen and I believe Mike Zimmer called him a “ Leon Hall clone”. He’s somewhat underachieved for a 1st round pick, he was buried on the depth chart his 1st year and has been pretty injury prone. I feel like he doesn’t get as much heat for underperforming because other 1st round picks like Ogbuehi have been so horrific. And other high round picks like Fisher and Ross take some of the heat off him. He’s not terrible ok at best I guess.

That's a fair assessment. Honestly though, how many great college players have we drafted that came in here and underperformed? You could make a huge list.

Some of that is coaching. Some of it is drafting guys that don't fit our scheme.

This is the team that brought in James Harrison to play LB when he's really a 4-3 DE over other LB's because of cost.

(11-24-2018, 02:57 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: So how are we the casual fan supposed to rate CB's or any position as every rating is flawed. Maybe that is why the eye test is used so often with problem being some have more expert eyes and knowledge to do an eye test than others.

I just meant look at as many different ones as possible.  

I've seen lists of "Best CB" that just use one stat.  I always try to look for more.

(11-24-2018, 05:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I love it when people say the PFF rankings are useless.

Why?

(11-24-2018, 05:53 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's a fair assessment. Honestly though, how many great college players have we drafted that came in here and underperformed? You could make a huge list.

Some of that is coaching. Some of it is drafting guys that don't fit our scheme.

This is the team that brought in James Harrison to play LB when he's really a 4-3 DE over other LB's because of cost.

I think part of the issue with Dennard is that he was a boundary CB at Mich St., and a pretty darn good one.   His entire pro career with the Bengals, he's been asked to play the slot corner role.  It could just be by his body size (5'11"), and maybe they just want a little more length to their outside corners, but I don't think that Dennard has ever become completely comfortable playing the interior of the field.

(11-24-2018, 08:32 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: I think part of the issue with Dennard is that he was a boundary CB at Mich St., and a pretty darn good one.   His entire pro career with the Bengals, he's been asked to play the slot corner role.  It could just be by his body size (5'11"), and maybe they just want a little more length to their outside corners, but I don't think that Dennard has ever become completely comfortable playing the interior of the field.

Bingo!

(11-24-2018, 05:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I love it when people say the PFF rankings are useless.

That said, Kirkpatrick's rating is 60.9 which is the #73 CB.

Dennard, 61.9 which is the #68 CB.

Jackson, 66.5 which is the #45 CB.

Phillips, 60.1 and not enough snaps to rate.

The ratings actually aren't terrible. They'd average to below average I'd say.

For giving up 500+ yards in 3 games in a row, I'd say the ratings are probably slightly higher than one would expect.

Our Safeties actually rate out pretty good overall too.

I don't think they're useless but they're no more than like 1/3 to at best 1/2 the story. They're like reading the middle 6 chapters of a 10 chapter book, like Eox said more context is needed.

With all that being said the Bengals will overpay Dennard with a long term deal like they did with Dre

(11-24-2018, 05:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I love it when people say the PFF rankings are useless.

That said, Kirkpatrick's rating is 60.9 which is the #73 CB.

Dennard, 61.9 which is the #68 CB.

Jackson, 66.5 which is the #45 CB.

Phillips, 60.1 and not enough snaps to rate.

The ratings actually aren't terrible. They'd average to below average I'd say.

For giving up 500+ yards in 3 games in a row, I'd say the ratings are probably slightly higher than one would expect.

Our Safeties actually rate out pretty good overall too.

Corners are only as good as the amount of pressure on the QB.

Dennard is fine, Kirk is fine, and Jackson is fine stop making the CB the issue when it clearly isn't.

(11-24-2018, 11:03 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Corners are only as good as the amount of pressure on the QB.

Yup, and I think a lot of folks forget about this. A great pass rush can mask many weak secondaries and vice versa a bad pass rush can make good DB's look very average. And overall our rush has been weak.

(11-24-2018, 02:08 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: It appears we have 1 of the worst slot corners in the league, yet I hear Dre is the issue in this forum and should be tarred, feathered and cut.

What to watch for in fantasy: Darqueze Dennard has been heavily targeted (23 percent of coverage snaps) and has struggled in coverage (0.38 fantasy points per snap) this season. Jarvis Landry aligns inside 71 percent of the time and has a shot to get back on track in Week 12

I've seen Dennard make some nice plays this year. With Austin's defensive scheme I'm not surprised our corners aren't rated last. Do they even have 1 INT all year?