(11-24-2018, 01:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's a cluster of all of the above (not interested in rehashing the Dalton debate for the umpteenth time with you, but we know where we stand on that). If you think Duke is the lead dog as far as drafting, he most definitely should be on the shit list. The drafts have not been good, corner. Really don't see how that's debatable. 1 pro-bowler in the last 7 drafts?

It's funny Shake as we seem to go Best Available Player off of Kiper and some of the other guys boards. So we generally get rated high...

BUT, most of the guys we draft, don't seem to fit our system.

ie We select a bunch of CB's who play man in college and have them play Zone here.

Or we draft a small WR in Ross and don't use him in the slot and try to use him outside on deep routes. IF Tyreke Hill were here and used like that, he'd likely fail.

I could go on and on. We draft slow, plodding LB's that can't cover over and over and over.

(11-24-2018, 12:58 PM)motoarch Wrote: He missed starts cause he was injured, a lot.

And we couldn’t afford him.  Did you remember what he wanted?  He want R1 money and to this day hasn’t shown he’s worth what he was asking for.  I’m not saying he wasn’t a talent, I’m saying you don’t pay a guy ridiculous amounts of money that could be better spent else where.  Like for example keeping wit and Zietler.  Which of course they didn’t do cause the ownership is ********.

He missed starts because if he got the starts he would of had a 1,000 yard season and that would of made his price tag go up so we benched our second best WR.

Its always been hard to credit or criticize player retention and drafting because its never been clear on who drafts, who decides resign value, etc.

Ive been very critical of the draft the last several years. But honestly I don't think it's fair to point at any one person and say it's all their fault we take guys with known injury concerns, bad scheme fits or just areas where we don't need to keep investing quality picks.

(11-24-2018, 05:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's funny Shake as we seem to go Best Available Player off of Kiper and some of the other guys boards. So we generally get rated high...

BUT, most of the guys we draft, don't seem to fit our system.

ie We select a bunch of CB's who play man in college and have them play Zone here.

Or we draft a small WR in Ross and don't use him in the slot and try to use him outside on deep routes. IF Tyreke Hill were here and used like that, he'd likely fail.

I could go on and on. We draft slow, plodding LB's that can't cover over and over and over.

Very true but I will add we have never really defines 'our system' like say the Pats and Steelers have.

(11-24-2018, 05:56 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's funny Shake as we seem to go Best Available Player off of Kiper and some of the other guys boards. So we generally get rated high...

BUT, most of the guys we draft, don't seem to fit our system.

ie We select a bunch of CB's who play man in college and have them play Zone here.

Or we draft a small WR in Ross and don't use him in the slot and try to use him outside on deep routes. IF Tyreke Hill were here and used like that, he'd likely fail.

I could go on and on. We draft slow, plodding LB's that can't cover over and over and over.

We've always seemed to try to squeeze round pegs into square holes. I honestly think if we swapped Tyreke Hill and John Ross, the success would be swapped as well. As disappointing as Ross has been, we really haven't been doing anything easy (or creative to get him going). 

A few years ago, I watched an interview with Wes Welker talking about Peyton and the Broncos offense. He said they almost never ran the same play twice. It might look similar, but they'd always throw a new tweak on it. I bet that kind of offense is rocket science compared to what we run.

(11-24-2018, 10:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: A few years ago, I watched an interview with Wes Welker talking about Peyton and the Broncos offense. He said they almost never ran the same play twice. It might look similar, but they'd always throw a new tweak on it. I bet that kind of offense is rocket science compared to what we run.

I forget who said it ? One of the analysts on NFL network perhaps ? But he described Zampese as a page flipper OC. Or in other words Z just flipped around in Hue's playbook randomly running plays that he hadn't ran in awhile.

I think Lazor is only like one or two rungs above this. Once we go off the scripted plays and/or the defense starts adjusting he has no further answers. Really good OC's can adjust on the fly and are actually playing 2 or 3 plays on down the line. Lazor is just a slightly better page flipper than Zampese.

He doesn't really know how to fine tune the offense to the abilities of the players he has.

(11-24-2018, 11:49 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I forget who said it ? One of the analysts on NFL network perhaps ? But he described Zampese as a page flipper OC. Or in other words Z just flipped around in Hue's playbook randomly running plays that he hadn't ran in awhile.

I think Lazor is only like one or two rungs above this. Once we go off the scripted plays and/or the defense starts adjusting he has no further answers. Really good OC's can adjust on the fly and are actually playing 2 or 3 plays on down the line. Lazor is just a slightly better page flipper than Zampese.

He doesn't really know how to fine tune the offense to the abilities of the players he has.

We have an 8 year veteran QB, who's pretty sharp and has seen a ton of NFL defenses.  Why not just allow to run no-huddle and call his own plays at the line, according to what he sees?  

(11-25-2018, 12:14 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We have an 8 year veteran QB, who's pretty sharp and has seen a ton of NFL defenses.  Why not just allow to run no-huddle and call his own plays at the line, according to what he sees?  

Good question ?

My faith in Lazor has been steadily going downhill all season. I have very little faith he's the right guy for the job. Andy may well do better.

(11-25-2018, 12:14 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We have an 8 year veteran QB, who's pretty sharp and has seen a ton of NFL defenses.  Why not just allow to run no-huddle and call his own plays at the line, according to what he sees?  

I really like that idea!

(11-24-2018, 10:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: We've always seemed to try to squeeze round pegs into square holes. I honestly think if we swapped Tyreke Hill and John Ross, the success would be swapped as well. As disappointing as Ross has been, we really haven't been doing anything easy (or creative to get him going). 

A few years ago, I watched an interview with Wes Welker talking about Peyton and the Broncos offense. He said they almost never ran the same play twice. It might look similar, but they'd always throw a new tweak on it. I bet that kind of offense is rocket science compared to what we run.

Ross's issues seem to be mainly mental. A well coached team would throw him some easy throws early to get that confidence high.

We run him deep into double coverage and throw it up.

Let's face it, on offense...Lazor is underwhelming. And the offensive line is bad.

When you have those 2 things...it's hard to have a good offense.

And further, the front office doesnt' seem to feel like offensive line is an important position group.

(11-24-2018, 01:47 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: It's a cluster of all of the above (not interested in rehashing the Dalton debate for the umpteenth time with you, but we know where we stand on that). If you think Duke is the lead dog as far as drafting, he most definitely should be on the shit list. The drafts have not been good, corner. Really don't see how that's debatable. 1 pro-bowler in the last 7 drafts?

I disagree with you. I think our drafts have been solid as of late besides the year where we drafted the o linemen. 

Last year we had Ross who i feel still has upside and has shown he can get in the end zone. I don't think he will end up being a bust.
Lawson is considered the steal of the draft and would be a top 10 pick if they did the draft again.
Joe Mixon was a steal in the second round.

This year we drafted a C that will probably be a Bengal for the next 10 years.
Bates picked in the second round would probably be a top 15 pick if the draft was done again.
Hubbard in the 3rd round was a f'n steal.

We've done fairly well in the draft, most observers think that is the one strength of the front office, we tend to get good value especially in the mid rounds. 

(11-25-2018, 12:14 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: We have an 8 year veteran QB, who's pretty sharp and has seen a ton of NFL defenses.  Why not just allow to run no-huddle and call his own plays at the line, according to what he sees?  

We did the same to Carson. He wasn't allowed to call the shots either.

(11-25-2018, 04:28 AM)CornerBlitz Wrote: I disagree with you. I think our drafts have been solid as of late besides the year where we drafted the o linemen. 

Last year we had Ross who i feel still has upside and has shown he can get in the end zone. I don't think he will end up being a bust.
Lawson is considered the steal of the draft and would be a top 10 pick if they did the draft again.
Joe Mixon was a steal in the second round.

This year we drafted a C that will probably be a Bengal for the next 10 years.
Bates picked in the second round would probably be a top 15 pick if the draft was done again.
Hubbard in the 3rd round was a f'n steal.

We've done fairly well in the draft, most observers think that is the one strength of the front office, we tend to get good value especially in the mid rounds. 

Here's our 8 first round picks over the last 7 years:

Billy Price - Mediocre PFF rating, battling injuries
John Ross - objectively looking like a bust, sorry
William Jackson - Looked good for one year. Not so much anymore. Yay?
Cedric Ogbuehi - Worst Tackle I've ever seen. Epic bust.
Darqueze Dennard - Meh. Waited several years to find out he's decent/average.
Tyler Eifert - Most injury prone Bengal ever.
Dre Kirkpatrick - Fan favorite whipping boy. Mediocre corner.
Kevin Zeitler - Good player.

That. Is. Bad.

Mixon is good. Boyd is good. Zeitler was good. Lawson might be good, but he slipped some this year and got hurt.

We should have a bigger haul than that from 7 drafts. No doubt about that.

1 pro-bowler is also indefensible for 7 drafts.