(10-26-2018, 01:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Coughlin.

Just looking at the '07 team.

They had TWO WRs with multiple 1000 yard seasons in Plaxico Burress (4) and Amani Toomer (5)
RB Brandon Jacobs had 2 seasons where he gained 1000 yards and averaged 5 yards per carry
TE Jeremy Shockey was 3X Pro Bowl and 1 X All-Pro 
LT David was Pro Bowl player
OC Shaun O'Hara was a 3 X Pro Bowl selection
RG Chris Snee was 3 X Pro Bowl and 1 X All Pro
DE Strahan was 7 X Pro Bowl and 4 X All Pro
DE Osi Umenyiora was 2 X Pro Bowl and 1 X All Pro
DE Justin Tuck was 2 X Pro Bowl and 1 X All Pro
MLB Antonio Pierce was 1 X Pro Bowl
CB Sam Madison was 4 X Pro Bowl and 2 X All Pro
QB Eli Manning 4 X Pro Bowl

That is 10 players who accumulated 30 Pro Bowl appearances including 6 players who had 10 All Pro seasons and one Hall of Fame player.  And that does not include 2 WRs with nine 1000 yard seasons and a RB with two 1000 yd, 5.0 avg seasons

Their is no comparison.  Coughlin had MUCH more talent to work with than Marvin ever had.

2015 Bengals:
7 Pro Bowlers (that year)
12-4 record
7th in scoring
2nd in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2013 Bengals
2 Pro Bowlers
11-5 record
6th in scoring
5th in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2005 Bengals 
4 Pro Bowlers
11-5 record
4th in points scored
22nd in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2007 Giants
1 Pro Bowler (Osi Umenyora)
10-6 record
14th in scoring
17th in points allowed
Won 3 straight road playoff games + the Super Bowl

I'd also like to point out that the Giants were underdogs in each of those playoff games, because...

1. You always suggest the Bengals can't be expected to win playoff games when they were underdogs.
2. The Giants being underdogs each week (massive underdogs 3 times) shows that they weren't as talent-laden as you're suggesting.

----

It's misleading for you to list career Pro Bowls to define the Giants talent level for one season. Some of those players (such as Sam Madison) compiled those accolades elsewhere, and some like Diehl weren't Pro Bowlers until later. Some of the guys you listed were old and fading (Toomer, Strahan, Madison). 

Nothing that I said was false. We've had better QB's, better o-lines, at least = RB talent, and our 2011-2015 defenses were some of the best in football, unlike the 2007 Giants, which is the best Giants team you can come up with.

(10-26-2018, 03:06 PM)Wyche Wrote: Why does everyone keep ignoring what Coughlin did in JAX?

Because he won championships with less talent (than Marv's had) in New York.

That said, he did a great job in Jacksonville, turning an expansion team into an AFC contender. No doubt.

(10-26-2018, 03:33 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Because he won championships with less talent (than Marv's had) in New York.

That said, he did a great job in Jacksonville, turning an expansion team into an AFC contender. No doubt.

You're lucky you posted this.....because I was about to reply to your previous post with "Yes, but you still didn't mention Jacksonville"



That out of the way, he took them to two AFCG within their first five years of existence......with no GM.  I'd argue that may be just as impressive as what he did in NY, sans the Lombardi, of course.

(10-26-2018, 03:16 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Belichick would not have multiple Super Bowl rings under Mike Brown (if the Dalton and palmer injuries still occurred)

His record would probably be better than Marvin's but even Bill gets decent free agent signings to help him win.

Where did I even mention Mike Brown? I said if they swapped rosters every year.

If Marvin got the exact rosters that Bill had from 2003-2017 player-for-player, and Bill had all of Marvin's rosters player-for-player, Marvin likely still wouldn't have any playoff wins and Bill would still have multiple rings.


Bill Belichick won a playoff game with the BROWNS for crying out loud. His QBs were Vinny Testaverde and Mark Rypien, his RB was Leroy Hoard, his WRs were Derrick Alexander and Mark Carrier, and his TE was Brian Kinchen.

He did something that Marvin hasn't been able to do in 15 years, with those players on the Browns.

You could give Marvin the All-Pro team and he'd still fail to win the SB.

It's funny how in threads dogging Bengals players out "they're better than they get credit for"

And in other threads dogging ML out "he has no talent"

Which is it ?

Here ya go Shake....you may have missed this post in response to BY.....


http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Lets-give-Marvin-credit-this-season?pid=619689#pid619689


That's pretty damn good. :andy:

(10-25-2018, 06:37 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That's hilarious.  Another "fan" who would rather win 4 games and miss the playoffs than make the playoffs and lose.

You have misinterpreted what 'this' fan thinks. This fan would rather win 4 games that invokes REAL change then to stay on the same hamster wheel with Marvin.

I had respect for ML at the start, he took a pathetic franchise and brought it to at least a level of respectability. But along the way - troubled players, troubled locker room, and the dreadful playoff and big game performances. At this point, if he believes the team issues are Mikey not moving forward enough then he should have had the balls to to quit and say so. If that is not the issue, then he should have have the balls to step down, or up and hand the reins to someone else to try and get over the hump.

(10-26-2018, 03:41 PM)Wyche Wrote: Here ya go Shake....you may have missed this post in response to BY.....


http://thebengalsboard.com/Thread-Lets-give-Marvin-credit-this-season?pid=619689#pid619689


That's pretty damn good. :andy:

I did miss that. Although it's been tough to keep up with both of our Merv apologists simultaneously. 

Good response. 

(10-26-2018, 03:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2015 Bengals:
7 Pro Bowlers (that year)
12-4 record
7th in scoring
2nd in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2013 Bengals
2 Pro Bowlers
11-5 record
6th in scoring
5th in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2005 Bengals 
4 Pro Bowlers
11-5 record
4th in points scored
22nd in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2007 Giants
1 Pro Bowler (Osi Umenyora)
10-6 record
14th in scoring
17th in points allowed
Won 3 straight road playoff games + the Super Bowl

I'd also like to point out that the Giants were underdogs in each of those playoff games, because...

1. You always suggest the Bengals can't be expected to win playoff games when they were underdogs.
2. The Giants being underdogs each week (massive underdogs 3 times) shows that they weren't as talent-laden as you're suggesting.

----

It's misleading for you to list career Pro Bowls to define the Giants talent level for one season. Some of those players (such as Sam Madison) compiled those accolades elsewhere, and some like Diehl weren't Pro Bowlers until later. Some of the guys you listed were old and fading (Toomer, Strahan, Madison). 

Nothing that I said was false. We've had better QB's, better o-lines, at least = RB talent, and our 2011-2015 defenses were some of the best in football, unlike the 2007 Giants, which is the best Giants team you can come up with.

The 2015 Bengals team had a back up QB who has never beaten a team with a record better than 5-11.

The best O-line we had was in front of another back up QB in '05 and paired with a 27th ranked defense.

Marvin never had as much talent as Coughlin on one team at the same time.

(10-26-2018, 04:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The 2015 Bengals team had a back up QB who has never beaten a team with a record better than 5-11.

The best O-line we had was in front of another back up QB in '05 and paired with a 27th ranked defense.

Marvin never had as much talent as Coughlin on one team at the same time.

The 2013 team was more talented than any Coughlin team, and our starting QB was healthy.

We lost at home to a weak Chargers team that we'd beaten on the road just weeks prior.

(10-26-2018, 04:14 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: The 2013 team was more talented than any Coughlin team, and our starting QB was healthy.

The 2013 team was by far the biggest disappointment in the Lewis tenure, but it was not as talented as Coughlins best teams.

(10-26-2018, 04:35 PM)fredtoast Wrote: The 2013 team was by far the biggest disappointment in the Lewis tenure, but it was not as talented as Coughlins best teams.

I provided the facts. We had more pro-bowlers on all of the teams I listed, and finished out the regular season ranked much higher on both sides of the ball. That includes 2013. You saying "nuh-uh" doesn't trump facts. 

(10-25-2018, 05:49 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Coughlin only won Super Bowls because he worked for an owner that got him some help in free agency.  Just look at their '07 starting lineup....


Their leading receiver was Plaxico Burress who had multiple thousand yard seasons in Pitt before signing with the Giants. 
RT Kareem McKenzie was a three year starter with the Jets before signing with the Giants.  
OC Shaun Ohara was a two year starter for the Browns before signing with the Giants and going to 3 Pro Bowls. 
DT Fred Robbins was a 3 year starter with the Vikings before signing with the Giants. 
MLB Antonio Pierce was a starter in Washington before signing with the Giants and going to a Pro Bowl. 
LB Kawika Mitchell was a starter in Kansas City before signing with the Giants.  
CB Sam Madison was an All Pro with the Dolphins before signing with the Giants.

And how many Pro Bowl players ended up in Cincinnati because they refused to play for the team that rafted them and forced a trade to the Bengals.

I don't even know if Coughlin would have won as many games as Marvin did here.  You can't just compare their records because Marvin was handicapped by working under Mike Brown.

This is exactly my thoughts!!!

(10-08-2018, 03:39 PM)BengalYankee Wrote: Since, you don't care now. Don't watch now.

See you in January :giggle:

Just wanted to remind you this thread exists. :)

(11-25-2018, 09:49 PM)motoarch Wrote: Just wanted to remind you this thread exists.  :)

Please keep this thread buried.




Thank you

(10-26-2018, 08:58 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I provided the facts. We had more pro-bowlers on all of the teams I listed, and finished out the regular season ranked much higher on both sides of the ball. That includes 2013. You saying "nuh-uh" doesn't trump facts. 

Are you forgetting that we lost our best Defensive player in Geno Atkins and best CB in Leon Hall that year?  

(10-26-2018, 03:30 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: 2015 Bengals:
7 Pro Bowlers (that year)
12-4 record
7th in scoring
2nd in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2013 Bengals
2 Pro Bowlers
11-5 record
6th in scoring
5th in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2005 Bengals 
4 Pro Bowlers
11-5 record
4th in points scored
22nd in points allowed
Embarrassing playoff loss at home

2007 Giants
1 Pro Bowler (Osi Umenyora)
10-6 record
14th in scoring
17th in points allowed
Won 3 straight road playoff games + the Super Bowl

I'd also like to point out that the Giants were underdogs in each of those playoff games, because...

1. You always suggest the Bengals can't be expected to win playoff games when they were underdogs.
2. The Giants being underdogs each week (massive underdogs 3 times) shows that they weren't as talent-laden as you're suggesting.

----

It's misleading for you to list career Pro Bowls to define the Giants talent level for one season. Some of those players (such as Sam Madison) compiled those accolades elsewhere, and some like Diehl weren't Pro Bowlers until later. Some of the guys you listed were old and fading (Toomer, Strahan, Madison). 

Nothing that I said was false. We've had better QB's, better o-lines, at least = RB talent, and our 2011-2015 defenses were some of the best in football, unlike the 2007 Giants, which is the best Giants team you can come up with.

(11-26-2018, 02:04 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Are you forgetting that we lost our best Defensive player in Geno Atkins and best CB in Leon Hall that year?  

No, I sure didn't. Do you think the loss of those 2 excuses losing to an inferior Chargers team at home (where we were 8-0)? 

The post above won that little exchange with Fred. We had more talent than the Giants. Even in 2013 without Geno or Hall.

(11-26-2018, 02:50 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: No, I sure didn't. Do you think the loss of those 2 excuses losing to an inferior Chargers team at home (where we were 8-0)? 

The post above won that little exchange with Fred. We had more talent than the Giants. Even in 2013 without Geno or Hall.

As years have passed, I'd forgotten that team was undefeated at home that season.

(11-26-2018, 02:57 AM)jason Wrote: As years have passed, I'd forgotten that team was undefeated at home that season.

It really was a great team. Dalton and Green had one of their best years, we had Gresh/Eifert, Marvin Jones, Sanu, Gio, a top 5 defense, Jay and Zimmer at coordinator spots, etc. Possibly the best team of the Marv era.