(11-26-2018, 12:17 PM)BenZoo2 Wrote: Here’s the ebenezer way in a nutshell.  There is a minimum salary cap in the Nfl.  I will spend money to retain my good players because if I don’t, fans won’t come at all.  I will pay average money to the rest of my roster.  I will not overspend in free agency, I will merely bring in a couple middling free agents who haven’t found a deal that I can bring in cheap.  I will hoard draft picks to keep my payroll lower so I can pocket additional cap money


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Yep, that's basically it. Mikey boy gets to pocket any cap money he doesn't spend on players.

(11-27-2018, 12:39 AM)bengalsturntup926 Wrote: I know they brag about his potential saying when he stqrts to get it hes goibg to be really good. I think thats probably why. 

I don't know ? Perhaps ? But meanwhile we can't run right, Dalton has no time, and we lose games.

(11-26-2018, 08:52 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: They dumped Martavis Bryant, but yes teams lose free agents.

You also have to draft well. The Steelers draft way better than us. And they have way more of a scouting department and a GM.

They also have an excellent offensive line coach in Mike Munchak, whom I think is someone we should take a look at to bring over here. Yeah, I know the Reggie Nelson incident, but that is history. I think making him an offensive coordinator while helping out the offensive line is a good idea. Plus, the Steelers lose a quality coach. 

(11-27-2018, 12:53 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Yep, that's basically it. Mikey boy gets to pocket any cap money he doesn't spend on players.

Mike Clown’s strategy is similar to those fat cracker sheriffs in Alabama that feed the inmates stale bread and old bologna and pocket the rest of the money. It’s debatable if the players are the inmates, or we fans, or both in Mike Clown’s world.

The foundation of the Bengals cap strategy is cheapness, plain and simple.

Not ready to call Pollack out yet though. Believe Glenn was still damaged goods from foot injury still and Price was injured most of offseason and most of regular season to be ready.

Plus they have said Pollack was begging for another draft pick but Bengals were adamant about not allowing one. Have to agree with him on drafting one or even two more.

(11-26-2018, 08:50 PM)Whatever Wrote: In fairness, the Steelers have lost a lot of quality starters to FA in that same timeframe.  I mean, Plaxico Burress, Santonio Holmes, Emmanuel Sanders, Martavious Bryant, Alan Faneca, Kelvin Beachum, Ryan Clark, Ziggy Hood, etc, etc.  They also strong armed Polamalu into retirement to get desperately needed cap relief.

The Bengals model is based on the Steelers model.  The Steelers have been more aggressive in retaining talent in recent years because Ben's window is closing.  The basic idea is that by maintaining a steady talent level that is capable of making and winning in the playoffs, you can be in the discussion on a yearly basis and every so often win a SB as opposed to pushing all in, potentially missing your shot due to any number of reasons, then be stuck in a rebuild.

For either model to work, you have to have a HC that can get the most out of his team in key regular season and playoff games.  If you don't have that, and we don't, you're not winning a championship either way.  As badly as this team underperforms come playoff time, a couple of big splash FA's are not netting us a title.  Maybe we have one playoff win to show for it.

Steelers also restructure contracts to help stay under the cap, which is something you never see the Bengals do.

(11-27-2018, 10:34 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Steelers also restructure contracts to help stay under the cap, which is something you never see the Bengals do.

It is a double edged sword. The salary gets converted to signing bonus and that signing bonus is prorated across the life of the deal making for more of a hit on the later years. The hope is that the year that all comes due you have a bunch of young guys who don't need resigned. It can work but teams have been bitten by it before. People often blame the Flacco deal for dismantling the Ravens, but it was actually the fact they broke from their in house rule of not restructuring and restructured a bunch of deals to make the Flacco thing work. What ended up happening is a lot of those deals didn't pan out and they were stuck, just now climbing out from under it the last year or two. Steelers haven't tripped over it yet, but GM's know it can bite you. 

It's a tool, but the Steelers success with it is the exception not really the norm.

(11-27-2018, 10:40 AM)Au165 Wrote: It is a double edged sword. The salary gets converted to signing bonus and that signing bonus is prorated across the life of the deal making for more of a hit on the later years. The hope is that the year that all comes due you have a bunch of young guys who don't need resigned. It can work but teams have been bitten by it before. People often blame the Flacco deal for dismantling the Ravens, but it was actually the fact they broke from their in house rule of not restructuring and restructured a bunch of deals to make the Flacco thing work. What ended up happening is a lot of those deals didn't pan out and they were stuck, just now climbing out from under it the last year or two. Steelers haven't tripped over it yet, but GM's know it can bite you. 

It's a tool, but the Steelers success with it is the exception not really the norm.

Really the Steelers and Ravens are vastly more well managed than us. The Ravens won a SB with Flacco! Joe Flacco!

Dalton and Flacco are fairly similar quality QB's.

(11-27-2018, 10:51 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Really the Steelers and Ravens are vastly more well managed than us. The Ravens won a SB with Flacco! Joe Flacco!

Dalton and Flacco are fairly similar quality QB's.

I'm not disagreeing that they are managed better. I am simply explaining the tool and how two different organizations have used it with two different results. The Ravens didn't go to it until after Flacco got the contract after the SB and it led to a lot of their cap issues the last couple years that hurt their team.

(11-27-2018, 03:06 AM)Go Cards Wrote: The foundation of the Bengals cap strategy is cheapness, plain and simple.  

Not ready to call Pollack out yet though. Believe Glenn was still damaged goods from foot injury still and Price was injured most of offseason and most of regular season to be ready.

Plus they have said Pollack was begging for another draft pick but Bengals were adamant about not allowing one. Have to agree with him on drafting one or even two more.

re: Price - Centers struggle as rookies. Elflein did last year. Lots of them do.

I do think he'll continue to improve.

(11-27-2018, 10:54 AM)Au165 Wrote: I'm not disagreeing that they are managed better. I am simply explaining the tool and how two different organizations have used it with two different results. The Ravens didn't go to it until after Flacco got the contract after the SB and it led to a lot of their cap issues the last couple years that hurt their team.

Well, plain and simple the reason we don't restructure contracts is we seem to rarely have the desire to spend at the cap. We go to painstaking budgeting to not be there.

Like this year, we brought in Glenn and waived Iloka.

With the bad tackling, one has to wonder if Iloka would have helped atleast some.

(11-27-2018, 10:57 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Well, plain and simple the reason we don't restructure contracts is we seem to rarely have the desire to spend at the cap. We go to painstaking budgeting to not be there.

Like this year, we brought in Glenn and waived Iloka.

With the bad tackling, one has to wonder if Iloka would have helped atleast some.

Iloka got replaced because he was bad. They tried to bring in Kurt Coleman to replace him in the off season and ended up with a rookie to do it. The issue is with what he was making you simply don't keep those guys around as back ups, especially ones that don't play special teams. The money gets spent at a rate about middle of the road or higher in the league, the issue is where we spend our money is not sexy. Think about it like this, the Steelers let Mike Wallace and Emmanual Sanders leave years back when they were big time players. They instead used that money to retain some of their O and D line. Those guys are now the corner stone of their team and the reloaded with guys like AB and JuJu. It all works in concert, it's not the spending that is holding us back...seriously, it's the misses when we choose to spend and not that do tend to hurt. 

Paying a guy like Burfict and Dre have not yielded well, when we could have spent it on linebackers who can cover or O linemen. They got big time contracts, they just haven't performed to them. That doesn't make us cheap it makes us bad at deciding who we do pay. 

(11-27-2018, 10:34 AM)ochocincos Wrote: Steelers also restructure contracts to help stay under the cap, which is something you never see the Bengals do.

The Steelers do this when they need cap room.  We never really need to create room to stay under, though.

We do a great job of managing the cap, but probably need to follow more of the Ravens model when it comes to FA in the future.  Of course, I don't really think it makes a difference if we still have Marvin at the helm.

(11-27-2018, 11:02 AM)Whatever Wrote: The Steelers do this when they need cap room.  We never really need to create room to stay under, though.

We do a great job of managing the cap, but probably need to follow more of the Ravens model when it comes to FA in the future.  Of course, I don't really think it makes a difference if we still have Marvin at the helm.

That was the point I was trying to make. They restructure to keep getting cap room and continuing to add/keep players. The Bengals view contracts as set in stone and also conservatively hold a large amount of it for contract extensions that may or may not come.

(11-27-2018, 11:02 AM)Au165 Wrote: Iloka got replaced because he was bad. They tried to bring in Kurt Coleman to replace him in the off season and ended up with a rookie to do it. The issue is with what he was making you simply don't keep those guys around as back ups, especially ones that don't play special teams. The money gets spent at a rate about middle of the road or higher in the league, the issue is where we spend our money is not sexy. Think about it like this, the Steelers let Mike Wallace and Emmanual Sanders leave years back when they were big time players. They instead used that money to retain some of their O and D line. Those guys are now the corner stone of their team and the reloaded with guys like AB and JuJu. It all works in concert, it's not the spending that is holding us back...seriously, it's the misses when we choose to spend and not that do tend to hurt. 

Paying a guy like Burfict and Dre have not yielded well, when we could have spent it on linebackers who can cover or O linemen. They got big time contracts, they just haven't performed to them. That doesn't make us cheap it makes us bad at deciding who we do pay. 

A guy like MJ gets paid a lot and is bad. The Bengals do it all the time.

Missing on Ced and Fisher really hurt this team bad.

One miscalculation the Bengals made...if this wasn't PR is I think they thought after 2-3 really good drafts that they could keep this thing going for seasons and seasons without being down.

Probably in 2015 when we had a Top Roster...they should have dipped into free agency for a Center or MLB that could cover a TE. The results may have been different that year. THAT was the time to go all in!

(11-27-2018, 11:52 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: One miscalculation the Bengals made...if this wasn't PR is I think they thought after 2-3 really good drafts that they could keep this thing going for seasons and seasons without being down.

Probably in 2015 when we had a Top Roster...they should have dipped into free agency for a Center or MLB that could cover a TE. The results may have been different that year. THAT was the time to go all in!

Mikey once said if the team was 'close' he would add that extra piece or two through free agency, but that was a lie. Same way he has lied about wanting to win championships. He does nothing and never has done anything that is at all in tune with winning championships. 

What did CP say during the Football Life episode - "I told Mike he had to be aggressive about winning but he would not". Mikey has always counting on the "next few drafts" to build the team completely ignoring the fact that not all drafts work out well and you still lose older players every year for various reasons. 

Mikey is 100% business and 0% winning. Worst owner in the NFL by far.

(11-27-2018, 12:01 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Mikey once said if the team was 'close' he would add that extra piece or two through free agency, but that was a lie. Same way he has lied about wanting to win championships. He does nothing and never has done anything that is at all in tune with winning championships. 

What did CP say during the Football Life episode - "I told Mike he had to be aggressive about winning but he would not". Mikey has always counting on the "next few drafts" to build the team completely ignoring the fact that not all drafts work out well and you still lose older players every year for various reasons. 

Mikey is 100% business and 0% winning. Worst owner in the NFL by far.

I gotta say, I actually disagree with this statement.
Business people understand that winning increases business, so Mike does (or should) know that winning will increase profits.
I think it's more accurate to say he seems to prioritize not being the worst and trying to maintain a perennially (somewhat) competitive roster. For all the frustrations the Bengals have had over the past 15 years, perennially at the bottom of the AFC North and getting Top 10 picks is not among them. He just hasn't ever seemed to be willing to gamble the future to try to win now.

(11-27-2018, 12:01 PM)I_C_DeadPeople Wrote: Mikey once said if the team was 'close' he would add that extra piece or two through free agency, but that was a lie. Same way he has lied about wanting to win championships. He does nothing and never has done anything that is at all in tune with winning championships. 

What did CP say during the Football Life episode - "I told Mike he had to be aggressive about winning but he would not". Mikey has always counting on the "next few drafts" to build the team completely ignoring the fact that not all drafts work out well and you still lose older players every year for various reasons. 

Mikey is 100% business and 0% winning. Worst owner in the NFL by far.

I honestly wouldn't blame Mikey for waiting until we can at least win a playoff game to push all in in FA, but if that's his criteria, Marvin should have been long gone.

(11-27-2018, 12:54 PM)ochocincos Wrote: I gotta say, I actually disagree with this statement.
Business people understand that winning increases business, so Mike does (or should) know that winning will increase profits.
I think it's more accurate to say he seems to prioritize not being the worst and trying to maintain a perennially (somewhat) competitive roster. For all the frustrations the Bengals have had over the past 15 years, perennially at the bottom of the AFC North and getting Top 10 picks is not among them. He just hasn't ever seemed to be willing to gamble the future to try to win now.

The NFL is a subsidized industry though with revenue sharing. You can get 1/32 of the pie whether you win or lose...and the salary cap floor...while we once thought it was going to make the Bengals spend...didn't help.

Also, slotted draft pick pay probably is bad for the Bengals as they realize they can get cheap labor and not have to negotiate hard.