(09-16-2015, 09:36 PM)BengalChris Wrote: How do you do a helmet-to-helmet hit on a man's chest? Just wondering.

I was going to say, Weeden's head is up his ass, not in his chest!

(09-16-2015, 10:23 PM)Penn Wrote: What can he be fined for?

Really.  If you can look at it objectively instead of as a Bengal fan, then what can he be fined for?  That looked to me like very poorly executed stiff arm attempts.  Even if you don't fully agree, at minimum an unbiased view can only say it is unclear which it is.  No fine.

Now if you want to use what happened here as a basis to support a view I've had for a long time I am with you.  Stiff arm above the shoulders should be illegal.  Other than the obvious reason demonstrated in that play, it is also a safety concern.  But safety concerns only matter in the NFL when the offense can benefit with the exception of a runner leading with his head in and even then only in certain situations.  Hey, #defensiveplayersafetymatters?

But that isn't what you are talking about, is it?

Stiff arm? Wait who had the ball? I've never saw a non ball carrier execute a stiff arm (twice) sigh. Enough with the excuses for Cooper. Why all the excuses by Bengal fans for a non Bengal, over a Bengal. Weird. You won't see that with other fan bases. It's time we rally around our players instead of listening to the national media and slamming them because the media does. They didn't watch the game (just the highlights of Jones actions), and we all saw how Oakland got when they start losing (chirpy, cheap shots etc). Typical of Oakland teams. Cooper didn't have the ball so no he wasn't stiff arming anyone. He was jabbing him in the throat. And I bet if he plays Jones again he won't try him again. Don't start something you can't finish. That's the moral to this story, and what we all as Bengal fans should be preaching as we circle the wagon around Jones, who we all know has come a long way and deserves our support. Especially as he's stepped up as a leader of the D.

Nobody got mad when Burfict set the tone for the defense in what some could deem a dirty way. Lets try to remember that when we slam Jones. Unless those same posters slammed Burfict too. Which I can pretty much guarantee they didn't.

(09-17-2015, 11:55 AM)jj22 Wrote: Stiff arm? Wait who had the ball? I've never saw a non ball carrier execute a stiff arm (twice) sigh. Enough with the excuses for Cooper. Why all the excuses by Bengal fans for a non Bengal, over a Bengal. Weird. You won't see that with other fan bases. It's time we rally around our players instead of listening to the national media and slamming them because the media does. They didn't watch the game (just the highlights of Jones actions), and we all saw how Oakland got when they start losing (chirpy, cheap shots etc). Typical of Oakland teams. Cooper didn't have the ball so no he wasn't stiff arming anyone. He was jabbing him in the throat. And I bet if he plays Jones again he won't try him again. Don't start something you can't finish. That's the moral to this story, and what we all as Bengal fans should be preaching as we circle the wagon around Jones, who we all know has come a long way and deserves our support. Especially as he's stepped up as a leader of the D.

Nobody got mad when Burfict set the tone for the defense in what some could deem a dirty way. Lets try to remember that when we slam Jones. Unless those same posters slammed Burfict too. Which I can pretty much guarantee they didn't.

I don't think many of us were thrilled with Burfict twisting ankles and nut-tapping people. I have no real issue with any big hits he's laid during the play.

Adam "don't call me Pacman" Jones could have, and should have lit Amari up on one of the next few plays. That's that.

The logic that we should blindly defend a guy because he plays on our team is borderline stupid. I don't even know where you're going with that. If my sister commits a crime, I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen just because she's my sister. Cooper illegally stiff armed Jones and then our guy retaliated in a way that we don't feel that he should have.

If a Steelers player does the same thing to one of our guys, you're just going to cry that it's dirty. Your argument is that we should just defend our Bengals players whether they're right or wrong, and that's dumb. I'm going to defend whoever I feel isn't in the wrong in a given situation, I'm intelligent enough to be able to separate what jersey people are wearing for the sake of forming a logical opinion.

(09-17-2015, 12:20 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I don't think many of us were thrilled with Burfict twisting ankles and nut-tapping people. I have no real issue with any big hits he's laid during the play.

Adam "don't call me Pacman" Jones could have, and should have lit Amari up on one of the next few plays. That's that.

The logic that we should blindly defend a guy because he plays on our team is borderline stupid. I don't even know where you're going with that. If my sister commits a crime, I'm not going to pretend it didn't happen just because she's my sister. Cooper illegally stiff armed Jones and then our guy retaliated in a way that we don't feel that he should have.

If a Steelers player does the same thing to one of our guys, you're just going to cry that it's dirty. Your argument is that we should just defend our Bengals players whether they're right or wrong, and that's dumb. I'm going to defend whoever I feel isn't in the wrong in a given situation, I'm intelligent enough to be able to separate what jersey people are wearing for the sake of forming a logical opinion.

I guess the logic is we are fans which means we are fanatic over our team, which means we let some things ride maybe we shouldn't. Again if a Steeler player beat up Adam for punching them in the throat repeatedly. I wouldn't whine about it. Guys keep saying that to me but truth is I wouldn't. That's the truth (I never complained about the Steelers knocking out our players. Just that we never "legally" knocked out any of theirs in return. You see when we finally took out one of their own in Bell, they turned right around and took out Green). Like I keep saying I don't care who it is, don't start none wont be none! I may be wrong for that belief but I'm sticking to it. I didn't like the penalty or bad coverage overshadowing his big game, but I'm not going to slam him for it.

(09-17-2015, 12:29 PM)jj22 Wrote: I guess the logic is we are fans which means we are fanatic over our team, which means we let some things ride. Again if a Steeler player beat up Adam for punching them in the throat repeatedly. I wouldn't whine about it. You guys keep saying that to me but truth is I wouldn't. That's the truth. Like I keep saying I don't care who it is, don't start none wont be none! I may be wrong for that belief but I'm sticking to it.

That's fine, I just don't know why you keep bumping these kinds of threads with a long speech about how everyone is "making excuses" if you already understand and you've already had this same conversation with multiple other people.

We don't like Burfict hitting people in the nuts, we don't like people twisting ankles, we don't like Jones taking helmets off and pushing heads to the ground/into helmets, we don't like the after the whistle extracurricular activity in general.

You think that if someone "starts it", then a more aggressive retaliation is fine whether it's our guy or not. That's fine and dandy, but I don't know what's so confusing about a lot of people NOT liking that behavior for any reason. If you do understand why people don't like it, then why keep making instigating posts on the subject?

I understand why people rob banks too, that doesn't mean I can't argue against it. I just know how to respectfully disagree with others (by admitting I understand where people are coming from). The stiff arm excuse is what brought me back to the subject. A stiff arm? Really. That's searching for excuses for Cooper. He didn't even have the ball. Have you ever heard of a non ball carrier executing stiff arms? That's going out of your way to make excuses for Cooper. If your going to go out of your way to make excuses for someone do so for a Bengal. That's what fans do (and that's why I brought up being a fan).

(09-17-2015, 12:40 PM)jj22 Wrote: I understand why people rob banks too, that doesn't mean I can't argue against it. I just know how to respectfully disagree with others (by admitting I understand where people are coming from). The stiff arm excuse is what brought me back to the subject. A stiff arm? Really. That's searching for excuses for Cooper. He didn't even have the ball. Have you ever heard of a non ball carrier executing stiff arms? That's going out of your way to make excuses for Cooper. If your going to go out of your way to make excuses for someone do so for a Bengal. That's what fans do (and that's why I brought up being a fan).

Not going out the way for excuses at all, it's merely stating EXACTLY what happened during the play.

Cooper threw out a stiff arm to Jones.

Unfortunately for Cooper (and Jones' bank account), a stiff arm when you aren't carrying the ball isn't legal in the NFL, and Jones retaliated for that very reason.

A stiff arm is a stiff arm whether you have the ball or not, but it's legal with the ball and illegal without it. The fact that he wasn't a ballcarrier doesn't make it not a stiff arm anymore though, so  I don't know why you're saying people are making excuses. They're calling it as the play happened. It was a football move, but not a legal one. I don't think anyone has disputed it by saying that Cooper made a legal move, or did they? I missed it if somebody tried saying it was legal.

Then Jones gave Cooper a stiff arm that sent his head into his helmet then. Since a stiff arm is just the extension of the arm by definition. That's what your telling me.

I just don't think it was a stiff arm in the football sense. I've never saw a stiff arm from a non-ball carrier. So that was a jab (double) to the throat. Lets call it what it was and I'm fine with everyones opinion on the outcome.

(09-16-2015, 01:54 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Out of 175+ fines handed out last year regarding incidents only ON the field, 1 of them was higher than Jones'. Almost every single fine fell between $5 - $22 thousand (not million) dollars.

Apparently the league thought it was slightly more serious than "just playing some football", but hey, call me crazy for using facts here.

Fair enough it was more than just playing football and a fine is warranted. But Finnegan and Johnson were each fined $25K for their incident...why the extra $10K for Jones? They did a lot more than playing football for a lot longer too.

(09-17-2015, 12:53 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Fair enough it was more than just playing football and a fine is warranted. But Finnegan and Johnson were each fined $25K for their incident...why the extra $10K for Jones? They did a lot more than playing football for a lot longer too.

They got ejected. 

(09-17-2015, 12:58 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: They got ejected. 

It was also five years ago... inflation!

(09-17-2015, 11:55 AM)jj22 Wrote: Stiff arm? Wait who had the ball? I've never saw a non ball carrier execute a stiff arm (twice) sigh. Enough with the excuses for Cooper. Why all the excuses by Bengal fans for a non Bengal, over a Bengal. Weird. You won't see that with other fan bases. It's time we rally around our players instead of listening to the national media and slamming them because the media does. They didn't watch the game (just the highlights of Jones actions), and we all saw how Oakland got when they start losing (chirpy, cheap shots etc). Typical of Oakland teams. Cooper didn't have the ball so no he wasn't stiff arming anyone. He was jabbing him in the throat. And I bet if he plays Jones again he won't try him again. Don't start something you can't finish. That's the moral to this story, and what we all as Bengal fans should be preaching as we circle the wagon around Jones, who we all know has come a long way and deserves our support. Especially as he's stepped up as a leader of the D.

Nobody got mad when Burfict set the tone for the defense in what some could deem a dirty way. Lets try to remember that when we slam Jones. Unless those same posters slammed Burfict too. Which I can pretty much guarantee they didn't.

I fully expected to see people standing up for Jones once they found out he was punched in the throat, but I guess I underestimated these boards. Why do people think Amari Cooper called it "physical football" and didn't rip Adam Jones publicly? It's not because he's a classy dude, it's probably because he knew he wasn't being a boy scout himself, and didn't want to bring any more attention to the matter, lest he wind up getting fined as well. 

(09-17-2015, 12:48 PM)jj22 Wrote: Then Jones gave Cooper a stiff arm that sent his head into his helmet then. Since a stiff arm is just the extension of the arm by definition. That's what your telling me.

I just don't think it was a stiff arm in the football sense. I've never saw a stiff arm from a non-ball carrier. So that was a jab (double) to the throat. Lets call it what it was and I'm fine with everyones opinion on the outcome.

That'd be way too easy (and truthful).

(09-17-2015, 12:58 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: They got ejected. 

Yea but I'm talking about the fines. An ejection doesn't = $10,000. they were fined $10K less for an actual fight. Whit was ejected for doing less than them and fined $26250 for protecting Dalton vs. the raiders in 2012 (that years 1st offense minimum for a fight). This season's minimum for a first time offense is around $28,000. So do ejections reduce the fine to the minimum but if you keep playing the game you get slapped an extra charge? I'm just confused about how they evaluate it.

(09-17-2015, 01:07 PM)OrlandoBengal Wrote: It was also five years ago... inflation!

Ehh inflation of the $25k from 2010 is about $27k in today's value. I double checked that lol. If it went from $25k to $35k in 5 years because of inflation, it would suck for those of us not on these multi year multimillion dollar contracts  

(09-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I fully expected to see people standing up for Jones once they found out he was punched in the throat, but I guess I underestimated these boards. Why do people think Amari Cooper called in "physical football" and didn't rip Adam Jones publicly? It's not because he's a classy dude, it's probably because he knew he wasn't being a boy scout himself, and didn't want to bring any more attention to the matter, lest he wind up getting fined as well. 


That'd be way too wasy (and truthful).

It looked like a stiff arm to me.

I don't know why you seem to think I'm not being "truthful" for calling a play exactly as a lot of us are seeing it. I have no reason to go out of my way to bash Adam Jones, I've been quite the supporter of him over the years.

Cooper gave him a stiff arm, which is illegal to do if you aren't a ball carrier (so I'm not defending him, I'm actually pointing out that what Cooper did was illegal and why it was illegal). I think it's less truthful to claim that he "JABBED" somebody in the throat. Do you people know what a jab is???

(09-17-2015, 01:30 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Yea but I'm talking about the fines. An ejection doesn't = $10,000. they were fined $10K less for an actual fight. Whit was ejected for doing less than them and fined $26250 for protecting Dalton vs. the raiders in 2012 (that years 1st offense minimum for a fight). This season's minimum for a first time offense is around $28,000. So do ejections reduce the fine to the minimum but if you keep playing the game you get slapped an extra charge? I'm just confused about how they evaluate it.

He probably got he "Pacman Jones 25% surcharge" added onto the fine.  I only mean that half jokingly... if I were him, I would expect any type of sanction to be a little more harsh because of my background.

(09-17-2015, 01:42 PM)djs7685 Wrote: It looked like a stiff arm to me.

I don't know why you seem to think I'm not being "truthful" for calling a play exactly as a lot of us are seeing it. I have no reason to go out of my way to bash Adam Jones, I've been quite the supporter of him over the years.

Cooper gave him a stiff arm, which is illegal to do if you aren't a ball carrier (so I'm not defending him, I'm actually pointing out that what Cooper did was illegal and why it was illegal). I think it's less truthful to claim that he "JABBED" somebody in the throat. Do you people know what a jab is???

A stiff arm with a fist? Why would Cooper need to stiff arm Jones? Just curious.

(09-17-2015, 12:48 PM)jj22 Wrote: Then Jones gave Cooper a stiff arm that sent his head into his helmet then. Since a stiff arm is just the extension of the arm by definition. That's what your telling me.

I just don't think it was a stiff arm in the football sense. I've never saw a stiff arm from a non-ball carrier. So that was a jab (double) to the throat. Lets call it what it was and I'm fine with everyones opinion on the outcome.

Bit of an over reach there but I can see where some of what I said may be open to incorrect interpretation.

Stiff arms are a legal blocking technique in the open field.  You can't start penalizing for a stiff arm above the shoulder pads (in the form of hands to the face) and not penalize ball carriers for doing the same.  As is, as long as the person doesn't grab the face mask a hand to the head in open field just isn't a penalty.

No, I thought when I alluded to this play being something that SHOULDN'T be legal only people with close encounters with a tree could mis-interpret but I guess I was wrong.  I already said stiff arms to the face should be a safety issue clearly.  What I wan't as clear about is the other reason (I did say there was 2 reason?).  Perception.  You and Adam Jones are perceiving intention.  You cannot penalize/fine for how you infer what is in a persons head when the action could be interpreted as a legal action.  Is it possible it was a punch/blow?  Sure, but the video evidence alone doesn't show that, you are inferring it.

As to some of your other statements.  I am fine with what Jones did and I am also okay with the fine.  Sometimes players have to take a fine to make a statement of standing their ground.  I wouldn't have been okay with the final shove on the ground was a clear punch to the face.  I'm not okay with going after a persons genitals either.  NO MATTER WHO DOES IT.

(09-17-2015, 12:53 PM)type_stripe Wrote: Fair enough it was more than just playing football and a fine is warranted. But Finnegan and Johnson were each fined $25K for their incident...why the extra $10K for Jones? They did a lot more than playing football for a lot longer too.

As already stated by others, that was 5 years ago. Don't forget, this year a crack-down point in the NFL is fights. The $25K minimum was implemented this year.  If you go back to fights in 2010 the fines were usually much less then $25K so that was a very stiff penalty at that time.

With the new rules around fights, in actuality multiple players could have been fined on both teams for either not leaving or entering the area of a fight.  Fortunately they weren't since that would have been over-reach but the way the rule is written, they could have been.

(09-17-2015, 01:54 PM)jj22 Wrote: A stiff arm with a fist? Why would Cooper need to stiff arm Jones? Just curious.

https://vine.co/v/eF2FdO1P50m

This "punch" that everybody is talking about is interesting. If you pause the video at the exact moment the "punch" occurs, it looks like you can see Cooper's glove in a manner that clearly shows that his hand isn't in a fist at all. It also shows that he didn't hit him in the throat. Interesting.

(09-17-2015, 01:58 PM)Penn Wrote: Stiff arms are a legal blocking technique in the open field.  You can't start penalizing for a stiff arm above the shoulder pads (in the form of hands to the face) and not penalize ball carriers for doing the same.  As is, as long as the person doesn't grab the face mask a hand to the head in open field just isn't a penalty.

I thought it was illegal for a non-ballcarrier to use a stiff arm in the facemask/face/head?? I could be wrong, and that makes this even more interesting if it's not illegal.

(09-17-2015, 01:58 PM)Penn Wrote: .

.

As already stated by others, that was 5 years ago. Don't forget, this year a crack-down point in the NFL is fights. The $25K minimum was implemented this year.  If you go back to fights in 2010 the fines were usually much less then $25K so that was a very stiff penalty at that time.

With the new rules around fights, in actuality multiple players could have been fined on both teams for either not leaving or entering the area of a fight.  Fortunately they weren't since that would have been over-reach but the way the rule is written, they could have been.

They were fined the league minimum for fighting that season. This year's minimum for a first offense with fighting is just over $28000. Regardless if they are "stricter" what is the justification for the additional $7k? If it's just to lay down the law and scare other players from doing the same  (which won't work because emotions fly high in a physical sport), will everyone who gets into a scuffle and not get ejected have to pay $7k more than the league minimum which the league set itself? is $35k the new minimum even though ~$28000 is already set in the fine schedule?

And the fines for entering a fighting area have been in the league for a while. How heavily enforced? Not sure, but no other players are getting fined from being within the vacinity of this specific incident. So it sounds like the league says one thing but does another in terms of fighting. If they wanted to make a statement to the league to cut down fighting, they could have ejected him or suspended him.

Sounds like isolated punishment for one specific player. unless the league hands out other $35k fines for first time offenses with fighting in-game but not being ejected, then this is unfair.