(11-29-2018, 12:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You can keep on thinking that way, but I've never seen his role completely defined.  Also, I think if he really were a GM, who's hands weren't tied by the real Management that always has to approve any move he makes, we might see a bit more activity in Free Agency and the trade market.

Uh huh

Duke Tobin is about as much the GM of the Cincinnati Bengals as I am.

(11-29-2018, 12:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This isn't your first rodeo, is it? 

The Bengals have the following positions potentially losing starters to FA:
- RG (Hopkins and Redmond)
- RT (Hart, Fisher, and Ogbuehi)
- TE (Eifert, Kroft, Uzomah)
- MIKE (Preston Brown, Vincent Rey)
- RDE (Michael Johnson)
- Slot CB (Dennard)

That's six prominent roles needing to be filled.

It's probably safe to assume one of Willis, Hubbard, or Lawson (or a combo of all) will take over RDE, so the prominent roles go down to five.
If they are lucky, the Bengals might be able to find 2-3 quality starters in the draft.
So they will still need to get at least a couple quality veterans in FA to fill the remaining gaps in order to be a true competitor next year. And I don't mean Bobby Hart quality.

The only one I am worried about his Dennard the rest we could lose and most I hope we do lose. 
 Boiling to RG and Westerman to LG
RT- Draft Dalton Risner in the first and Sign Fisher as a swing Tackle
TE- Eifert and Uz should be cheap plus top 100 pick on position
LB- Kj wright for 7 million a year should replace both Brown and V Rey who are worth that combined.
CB- losing Dennard worries me but Phillips hasn't looked bad in role. 
DE- it's time for Johnson to go. Should use his spot on the roster for a backup to Lawson though.

Dennard will probably get overpaid by some team.

(11-29-2018, 01:12 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: The only one I am worried about his Dennard the rest we could lose and most I hope we do lose. 
 Boiling to RG and Westerman to LG
RT- Draft Dalton Risner in the first and Sign Fisher as a swing Tackle
TE- Eifert and Uz should be cheap plus top 100 pick on position
LB- Kj wright for 7 million a year should replace both Brown and V Rey who are worth that combined.
CB- losing Dennard worries me but Phillips hasn't looked bad in role. 
DE- it's time for Johnson to go. Should use his spot on the roster for a backup to Lawson though.

NO on Eifert. He should have been cheap this last year and wasn't. We need to just move on from Eifert.

I'd be down with KJ Wright.

MJ HAS to go.

(11-29-2018, 01:23 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Dennard will probably get overpaid by some team.

He's probably looking at a one year deal somewhere I doubt he will be coveted by the league.

(11-29-2018, 01:25 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: He's probably looking at a one year deal somewhere I doubt he will be coveted by the league.

I think that some team will overpay him because he's relatively young and they will assume that we have poor coaching and are playing him out of position.

(11-29-2018, 12:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You can keep on thinking that way, but I've never seen his role completely defined.  Also, I think if he really were a GM, who's hands weren't tied by the real Management that always has to approve any move he makes, we might see a bit more activity in Free Agency and the trade market.

We traded for Glenn this off season and we signed Brown in free agency.  So we did use other ways to build a team other than draft. Not many teams use free agency unless it's a team with a first year head coach that's cleaning house. Also how do you know that he doesn't  agree with that philosophy and if he wasn't the GM then why hasn't he left yet.  He has had plenty of opportunities to leave yet he hasn't.

(11-29-2018, 12:59 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: You can keep on thinking that way, but I've never seen his role completely defined.  Also, I think if he really were a GM, who's hands weren't tied by the real Management that always has to approve any move he makes, we might see a bit more activity in Free Agency and the trade market.

Duke seems like like a hybrid.  The typical Director of Player Personnel evaluates free agents for the GM and HC and is usually the primary contract negotiator.  Here, obviously, Katie and Troy do most of the contract negotiations, but Duke is also basically the head of the college scouting department, as well.

What we've generally been told is that it's Marvin and the Blackburn's making most of the personnel decisions, with Mikey having final say.  

I remember a Coslet interview where he said his biggest regret was not pushing Mike harder to take the Rickey Williams trade.  We don't know, obviously, but it seems to indicate that that Brown can be talked into changing his position if you make a good enough case.  Coslet at least seems to think he could have talked him into it.  So, Mike is typically cheap in FA, but it would seem this could be mitigated somewhat if Marvin and Duke were pushing harder.  

(11-29-2018, 01:43 PM)Whatever Wrote: Duke seems like like a hybrid.  The typical Director of Player Personnel evaluates free agents for the GM and HC and is usually the primary contract negotiator.  Here, obviously, Katie and Troy do most of the contract negotiations, but Duke is also basically the head of the college scouting department, as well.

What we've generally been told is that it's Marvin and the Blackburn's making most of the personnel decisions, with Mikey having final say.  

I remember a Coslet interview where he said his biggest regret was not pushing Mike harder to take the Rickey Williams trade.  We don't know, obviously, but it seems to indicate that that Brown can be talked into changing his position if you make a good enough case.  Coslet at least seems to think he could have talked him into it.  So, Mike is typically cheap in FA, but it would seem this could be mitigated somewhat if Marvin and Duke were pushing harder.  

Therein lies part of the problem though. Shouldn't something like that be a pretty obvious choice? Should someone really have to fight tooth and nail with upper management every time they want something to change? Trust that your employees can make good decision and let them make those decisions. If you aren't going to trust them, should they really even be working for you?

(11-29-2018, 01:31 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: We traded for Glenn this off season and we signed Brown in free agency.  So we did use other ways to build a team other than draft.  Not many teams  use free agency unless it's a team with a first year head coach that's cleaning house. Also how do you know that he doesn't  agree with that philosophy and if he wasn't the GM then why hasn't he left yet.  He has had plenty of opportunities to leave yet he hasn't.

And, just how have those "cheapest available" options panned out, so far?  Cordy Glenn is not looking like a franchise LT, but merely somewhere between average and slightly above.  Preston Brown?  We couldn't even get a solid half a season out of the guy, and he's IR'ed.  

You can try to cherry pick examples like that all day, but why were those moves so noteworthy to begin with?  Because they appeared to be moves out of the Bengals ordinary.  It likely took a group effort of convincing, to even get the big boss to even go along with either of those moves.  In hindsight, it's looking more and more like the Bills got a pair over on us.  At least the Bills were smart enough to let go of dead weight and admit that they were going to rebuild.  Instead of doing like the Bengals, picking up some bargain-basement, washed-up talent, and trying to sell it like they were putting a contender together.

All that I'm saying is that a real GM, with a vision and a plan, doesn't try to always grab at the cheapest available option, when putting a competitive team together.  

(11-29-2018, 12:49 PM)ochocincos Wrote: This isn't your first rodeo, is it? 

The Bengals have the following positions potentially losing starters to FA:
- RG (Hopkins and Redmond)
- RT (Hart, Fisher, and Ogbuehi)
- TE (Eifert, Kroft, Uzomah)
- MIKE (Preston Brown, Vincent Rey)
- RDE (Michael Johnson)
- Slot CB (Dennard)

That's six prominent roles needing to be filled.

It's probably safe to assume one of Willis, Hubbard, or Lawson (or a combo of all) will take over RDE, so the prominent roles go down to five.
If they are lucky, the Bengals might be able to find 2-3 quality starters in the draft.
So they will still need to get at least a couple quality veterans in FA to fill the remaining gaps in order to be a true competitor next year. And I don't mean Bobby Hart quality.

Isn’t is amazing, and kinda sad really, that a team with about 30 draft picks over the past 3 years still has that many holes to fill?


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You guys are right, we need a plan and stick to it. Fix the OL first, then work around other pieces. If MB wasn't so picky about comp picks, we could've had the Right Side of the line fixed by now.
Last year, guys like Seantrel Henderson, Billy Turner, Earl Watford, Michael Schofield.
All those guys could've been had for cheap. And we would've found average to above average guys out of that group.

And guess what, the first 3 will be available again this year, but we won't sign them cause we won't want to lose those comps.

(11-29-2018, 09:20 AM)SunsetBengal Wrote: It takes more than a great coach.  An organization aimed at being competitive in the league starts at the top, with Management.  Management needs to have a vision of a winning team, then hires the right coaching staff, and selects the talent with the correct skill sets to put together that said envisioned team.

That means being able to make the hard choices, take advantage of every opportunity to improve the team one step closer to achieving the goal of a championship.  It's become more than obvious that our current Management is comfortable with merely putting just enough into the team, in order to keep just enough of a façade of competitiveness out there that fans still remain interested, just enough to turn a profit.

Well I know we all know that its hard to fathom Mike Brown having a vision of what a truly competitive NFL team should be. He's obviously about 100 years behind the times. He's behind the times even for his age group. I'm sure he cant drive anymore, but I bet his driver cruises him around in an old Chevy Corsica to this day or maybe he switched to Ford and has an old Tempo.

(11-29-2018, 01:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Therein lies part of the problem though. Shouldn't something like that be a pretty obvious choice? Should someone really have to fight tooth and nail with upper management every time they want something to change? Trust that your employees can make good decision and let them make those decisions. If you aren't going to trust them, should they really even be working for you?

In retrospect, yes, it seems obvious.  However, Brown has always been a firm believer in needing a franchise QB(he's not wrong).  If Akili had turned out to be good and we had taken the deal, it would have been like the billion times the Browns missed out on a franchise QB by trading down.

Very few companies dictate policy from the bottom up.  I've been a manager for a company like that, and it's a nightmare. Department heads constantly make procedure changes that help their departments but hurt the others because they don't understand fully how they interact with each other.

Another issue is most of the big FA's we have signed like Thornton, Odom, Coles, and Bryant have been mediocre to complete busts.  This is going to make Duke and Marvin more reluctant to push for high dollar players to Mike, because they look incompetent pretty much every time they have.  Thia is one reason Mike should have dumped Marvin awhile ago.

(11-29-2018, 01:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, just how have those "cheapest available" options panned out, so far?  Cordy Glenn is not looking like a franchise LT, but merely somewhere between average and slightly above.  Preston Brown?  We couldn't even get a solid half a season out of the guy, and he's IR'ed.  

You can try to cherry pick examples like that all day, but why were those moves so noteworthy to begin with?  Because they appeared to be moves out of the Bengals ordinary.  It likely took a group effort of convincing, to even get the big boss to even go along with either of those moves.  In hindsight, it's looking more and more like the Bills got a pair over on us.  At least the Bills were smart enough to let go of dead weight and admit that they were going to rebuild.  Instead of doing like the Bengals, picking up some bargain-basement, washed-up talent, and trying to sell it like they were putting a contender together.

All that I'm saying is that a real GM, with a vision and a plan, doesn't try to always grab at the cheapest available option, when putting a competitive team together.  

Hey they went out and got the poor mans version of Khalil Mack. They could have gotten the real thong but old Mikey just shops at the bargain basement.

(11-29-2018, 03:38 PM)bengaloo Wrote: Well I know we all know that its hard to fathom Mike Brown having a vision of what a truly competitive NFL team should be. He's obviously about 100 years behind the times. He's behind the times even for his age group. I'm sure he cant drive anymore, but I bet his driver cruises him around in an old Chevy Corsica to this day or maybe he switched to Ford and has an old Tempo.

Nah, it's an old Taurus....got it at Ed Pinkley Motors.  Yep, a Pinkley Taurus.  

(11-29-2018, 01:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, just how have those "cheapest available" options panned out, so far?  Cordy Glenn is not looking like a franchise LT, but merely somewhere between average and slightly above.  Preston Brown?  We couldn't even get a solid half a season out of the guy, and he's IR'ed.  

You can try to cherry pick examples like that all day, but why were those moves so noteworthy to begin with?  Because they appeared to be moves out of the Bengals ordinary.  It likely took a group effort of convincing, to even get the big boss to even go along with either of those moves.  In hindsight, it's looking more and more like the Bills got a pair over on us.  At least the Bills were smart enough to let go of dead weight and admit that they were going to rebuild.  Instead of doing like the Bengals, picking up some bargain-basement, washed-up talent, and trying to sell it like they were putting a contender together.

All that I'm saying is that a real GM, with a vision and a plan, doesn't try to always grab at the cheapest available option, when putting a competitive team together.  

We moved down nine spots in the draft to get a solid player at a premium position. How was that a bad deal? 
Look I am not a big fan of the front office either but not signing free agents and valuing draft picks isn't the problem. The problems is not resigning guys that were good players and not replacing them. Also keeping guys that are over their prime instead of younger better players is a problem.

(11-29-2018, 01:04 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: Exactly. If you think all Tobin wants to do every offseason is bring in mediocre over the Hill LBers than that wouldn’t speak too highly of him anyway. I also kind of doubt Marvin would continually be brought back if it was up to anyone other than Mike Brown.

Gentlemen,all these thoughts and guessing about who is in charge is worthless to you.The biggest issues for this season is all the key injuries.No team can endure the huge losses this team has.Not any team.The Bengals have had the worse injuries of all teams in nfl this season.I sometimes believe they are crused or snake bit as they say.However,no matter how much we want a change,it will be up to the front office to make it happen.That includes Katy and Pete as well as mike and they will discuss what is best for the organization going forward.I would expect that Marvin will given his opportunity to finish out his contract and see what he can do next year.Who knows.As fans all we can do is voice our thoughts on here.The rest is up to the Bengals organization.WHO-DEY ALL DAY.

(11-29-2018, 06:36 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: We moved down nine spots in the draft to get a solid player at a premium position. How was that a bad deal? 
Look I am not a big fan of the front office either but not signing free agents and valuing draft picks isn't the problem. The problems is not resigning guys that were good players and not replacing them. Also keeping guys that are over their prime instead of younger better players is a problem.

The bad part of the deal was accepting a 10M contract on a guy that has served about as well as a similar guy getting the veteran minimum would have.  The only good part was moving back in the draft, I guess.  Heck, they could have entertained suitors on draft day and made that, or a similar trade, and likely came out on the better end.

(11-29-2018, 07:54 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: The bad part of the deal was accepting a 10M contract on a guy that has served about as well as a similar guy getting the veteran minimum would have.  The only good part was moving back in the draft, I guess.  Heck, they could have entertained suitors on draft day and made that, or a similar trade, and likely came out on the better end.

10 million for a LT is dirt cheap.