(11-29-2018, 01:57 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: And, just how have those "cheapest available" options panned out, so far?  Cordy Glenn is not looking like a franchise LT, but merely somewhere between average and slightly above.  Preston Brown?  We couldn't even get a solid half a season out of the guy, and he's IR'ed.  

You can try to cherry pick examples like that all day, but why were those moves so noteworthy to begin with?  Because they appeared to be moves out of the Bengals ordinary.  It likely took a group effort of convincing, to even get the big boss to even go along with either of those moves.  In hindsight, it's looking more and more like the Bills got a pair over on us.  At least the Bills were smart enough to let go of dead weight and admit that they were going to rebuild.  Instead of doing like the Bengals, picking up some bargain-basement, washed-up talent, and trying to sell it like they were putting a contender together.

All that I'm saying is that a real GM, with a vision and a plan, doesn't try to always grab at the cheapest available option, when putting a competitive team together.  

In fairness, Cordy Glenn is far from the "cheapest available" option.  He's tied for the 8th biggest LT contract in the league.  The only starting caliber LT available in FA was Nate Solder, who has also had his share of injury issues.  The Glenn move hasn't worked out as well as any of us expected, but he has upgraded the position and I personally don't fear for the QB's life every time he takes a 7 step drop.

I think you could bag on the Brown signing more if he had an injury history, but he never missed a game with the Bills.  He looked like a good pick up when he was healthy and there really wasn't any indication that he was going to get hurt.

For whatever reason, this team has struggled mightily in the deep end of FA, particularly during the Marvin era.  Really, the only position group where this team has consistently done a good job of bringing in productive veteran talent has been the secondary.  You've had the Tory Smith, Nate Clements, Terrance Newman, Chris Crocker, and Pacman FA signings to go with the Deltha O'Neal and Reggie Nelson trades.  However, the one position group that they can actually be successful with in FA makes no sense to build that way with the ridiculous amount of early draft picks they dump into it.  WR has been a disaster.  LB has been a couple of surprise hits with a ton of big misses.

Mikey will never hire a GM, but whether the problem is Marvin, Duke, or the Blackburn's, this team needs to get better at evaluating FA targets.  I think it would help if they moved Duke into just a College Scouting Director role and brought in a DPP and support staff to evaluate FA's.  However, I have the sneaking suspicion that Marvin is a big part of the problem.  I think Marvin pushed for guys like Thornton and MJ to get those big $ deals and continued to play them despite their mediocrity because he would look dumb if he benched them after pushing for them to get all that money.  You kind of see it with his approach to discipline and accountability.  There are certain players that you can tell are "his boys" who are going to continue to play no matter what(because he pushed to get them in the first place) and there are guys like Ross who was supposedly a Tobin guy that he's going crack down hard on.

(11-29-2018, 10:30 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Now, you're starting to get the frustration from the lifelong fans!  I was 11 when the Bengals went to their first Super Bowl.  I'll be 50 in February.  No way in hell, did I ever think that I would get to this age, and not see the Bengals win a title.

Kinda makes you feel like it's a bad decision to follow them doesn't it?

(11-29-2018, 10:51 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Cry me a river. I have been frustrated since 68. I'm starting to feel like a red sox or cub fan. Lets cook a goat. Anything to break our curse. 

It's not a curse. We haven't won a single playoff game since modern free agency began in the NFL. It's a correlation.

(11-29-2018, 11:01 PM)Whatever Wrote: In fairness, Cordy Glenn is far from the "cheapest available" option.  He's tied for the 8th biggest LT contract in the league.  The only starting caliber LT available in FA was Nate Solder, who has also had his share of injury issues.  The Glenn move hasn't worked out as well as any of us expected, but he has upgraded the position and I personally don't fear for the QB's life every time he takes a 7 step drop.

I think you could bag on the Brown signing more if he had an injury history, but he never missed a game with the Bills.  He looked like a good pick up when he was healthy and there really wasn't any indication that he was going to get hurt.

For whatever reason, this team has struggled mightily in the deep end of FA, particularly during the Marvin era.  Really, the only position group where this team has consistently done a good job of bringing in productive veteran talent has been the secondary.  You've had the Tory Smith, Nate Clements, Terrance Newman, Chris Crocker, and Pacman FA signings to go with the Deltha O'Neal and Reggie Nelson trades.  However, the one position group that they can actually be successful with in FA makes no sense to build that way with the ridiculous amount of early draft picks they dump into it.  WR has been a disaster.  LB has been a couple of surprise hits with a ton of big misses.

Mikey will never hire a GM, but whether the problem is Marvin, Duke, or the Blackburn's, this team needs to get better at evaluating FA targets.  I think it would help if they moved Duke into just a College Scouting Director role and brought in a DPP and support staff to evaluate FA's.  However, I have the sneaking suspicion that Marvin is a big part of the problem.  I think Marvin pushed for guys like Thornton and MJ to get those big $ deals and continued to play them despite their mediocrity because he would look dumb if he benched them after pushing for them to get all that money.  You kind of see it with his approach to discipline and accountability.  There are certain players that you can tell are "his boys" who are going to continue to play no matter what(because he pushed to get them in the first place) and there are guys like Ross who was supposedly a Tobin guy that he's going crack down hard on.

I think aside from the injury, Brown is a slow, run thumper. IF we had a MLB that was mobile and could cover, we might be able to get away with Brown...but we don't. We try to throw 3 slow LB's out there. Yes...even Vigil when he was healthy was slow.

We need to start drafting a different type of LB or sign one in free agency.

(11-29-2018, 11:55 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Duke Tobin is pretty much the Gm. Listen to him talk in preseason and you can definitely tell. I think Mike has some say just like any other Owner would.

That's a pretty low blow to employ a guy to be a GM but not allow him to use the title of GM, or pay him(?) what a GM would get paid.  You have to wonder how that affects your ability to attract top-tier talent to a position when you will only hire people who will let you as the boss take the title and the pay for which they do the work.

I'm trying to think of that happening in a real life job that is relatable to the average schmo.  Maybe it would be like me being hired for a Director of Marketing position and then the guy hiring me saying "Welcome aboard!  By the way, your title here will be...um...let's see....we'll call you a Sales Associate or something and I'll keep the title of Director of Marketing.  Well, get to work!"

(11-29-2018, 10:51 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Cry me a river. I have been frustrated since 68. I'm starting to feel like a red sox or cub fan. Lets cook a goat. Anything to break our curse. 

You do realize the Cubs and Red Sox both broke their ridiculously long championship droughts by paying top dollar and hiring the same guy and making him President of Operations, spending lots of money on FAs and their scouting/development, and then securing some of the most talented managers in the game.

Curses aren't real and they don't just break themselves.  Hell, I may as well be unemployed, live in my mother's basement and spend all my time trolling internet forums while wondering how long my curse of not living in a mansion and marrying a super model will last.

(11-29-2018, 11:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: That's a pretty low blow to employ a guy to be a GM but not allow him to use the title of GM, or pay him(?) what a GM would get paid.  You have to wonder how that affects your ability to attract top-tier talent to a position when you will only hire people who will let you as the boss take the title and the pay for which they do the work.

I'm trying to think of that happening in a real life job that is relatable to the average schmo.  Maybe it would be like me being hired for a Director of Marketing position and then the guy hiring me saying "Welcome aboard!  By the way, your title here will be...um...let's see....we'll call you a Sales Associate or something and I'll keep the title of Director of Marketing.  Well, get to work!"

There multiple guys that are GMs that are not called GM, Secondly do you know how much he is being paid vs other GMs, and thirdly the guy has been offered GM jobs around the league why hasn't he taken them? You would assume that if he isn't getting paid and isn't being treated like a gm that he would jump at the opportunity to be one wouldn't he?

(11-29-2018, 11:56 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: There multiple guys that are GMs that are not called GM, Secondly do you know how much he is being paid vs other GMs, and thirdly the guy has been offered GM jobs around the league why hasn't he taken them? You would assume that if he isn't getting paid and isn't being treated like a gm that he would jump at the opportunity to be one wouldn't he?

I never claimed to "know" what Duke's role/title/salary actually are.  I am pretty sure Mike Brown is doing things in a cheap and ineffective way, though.

(11-29-2018, 10:03 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He's given up 31 pressures on the year. 2 behind Redmond for the team lead.

He's the #62 rated Tackle in the league.

He was injured the past 2 years and the Bills dumped his contract on us because they knew they had a younger, cheaper option.

And Glenn is hurt...AGAIN.

I already explained the PFF grade to you he has had 4 terrible games that hurt is overall grade. 
Secondly that's what happens when teams make trades they generally have cheaper younger options on the roster. If Fisher an OG were any good we would not have traded for them.
Thirdly so he has baggage we didn't lose a pick and he we can get out of the contract without any dead money. You ***** about them not taking risks but when they do you still ***** so what's your point.

Ya know I heard he likes to smack his secretary on the bottom and call her sweetheart.....just throwing that out there.Let's get this ball rollin.

(11-29-2018, 11:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think aside from the injury, Brown is a slow, run thumper. IF we had a MLB that was mobile and could cover, we might be able to get away with Brown...but we don't. We try to throw 3 slow LB's out there. Yes...even Vigil when he was healthy was slow.

We need to start drafting a different type of LB or sign one in free agency.

I think the thumper with a high football IQ is what Marvin likes in his LB's.  We've even seen them try 3-4 OLB's at SAM like Lawson and Harrison.  Malik Jefferson is a kid that hopefully develops that fits that athletic cover LB mold.  

I'll say Brown was better than I anticipated in coverage.  He just doesn't have the tools to play man, but at least he had a good feel for zone coverage and could catch the ball.

(11-30-2018, 01:15 AM)Whatever Wrote: I think the thumper with a high football IQ is what Marvin likes in his LB's.  We've even seen them try 3-4 OLB's at SAM like Lawson and Harrison.  Malik Jefferson is a kid that hopefully develops that fits that athletic cover LB mold.  

I'll say Brown was better than I anticipated in coverage.  He just doesn't have the tools to play man, but at least he had a good feel for zone coverage and could catch the ball.

He is waiting for the reincarnation of Ray Lewis to reassert his stature as a great defensive mind.

(11-30-2018, 12:07 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I already explained the PFF grade to you he has had 4 terrible games that hurt is overall grade. 
Secondly that's what happens when teams make trades they generally have cheaper younger options on the roster. If Fisher an OG were any good we would not have traded for them.
Thirdly so he has baggage we didn't lose a pick and he we can get out of the contract without any dead money. You ***** about them not taking risks but when they do you still ***** so what's your point.

LOL. Your defense is the PFF grade is wrong because he just had 4 terrible games. Then you go to the Bengals had to trade for him because their draft picks were bad. Then you go to they can waive him without any dead money.

Way to cover both sides of the fence.

The reality is Glenn was a guy that was really good 3 years ago. He's been injured a lot each of the previous 2 years and Buffalo had a younger, cheaper option so they dumped him on us. We traded for a guy with name recognition that was a shell of his former self.

(11-29-2018, 11:56 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: There multiple guys that are GMs that are not called GM, Secondly do you know how much he is being paid vs other GMs, and thirdly the guy has been offered GM jobs around the league why hasn't he taken them? You would assume that if he isn't getting paid and isn't being treated like a gm that he would jump at the opportunity to be one wouldn't he?

However the Bengals do things, who could argue with their track record of 0 playoff wins over the past 26+ years?

I mean, what team wouldn't want to hire Tobin away as their GM!

We're the model baby!

(11-30-2018, 10:36 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: LOL. Your defense is the PFF grade is wrong because he just had 4 terrible games. Then you go to the Bengals had to trade for him because their draft picks were bad. Then you go to they can waive him without any dead money.

Way to cover both sides of the fence.

The reality is Glenn was a guy that was really good 3 years ago. He's been injured a lot each of the previous 2 years and Buffalo had a younger, cheaper option so they dumped him on us. We traded for a guy with name recognition that was a shell of his former self.

It's looking more and more like they really "Bungled" that move..    

They just need to face the reality of the bad move, eat the loss, and move forward.

(11-30-2018, 10:36 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: LOL. Your defense is the PFF grade is wrong because he just had 4 terrible games. Then you go to the Bengals had to trade for him because their draft picks were bad. Then you go to they can waive him without any dead money.

Way to cover both sides of the fence.

The reality is Glenn was a guy that was really good 3 years ago. He's been injured a lot each of the previous 2 years and Buffalo had a younger, cheaper option so they dumped him on us. We traded for a guy with name recognition that was a shell of his former self.

1.) Interesting you have no rebuttal to my first point
2.) What's wrong with what I said. If a team screws up are they just supposed to twittle their thumbs and say gee we suck or are they supposed to actually make a move to help their team.Yeah they made terrible decisions in personal but they realized it and wanted to getting better. Also wasn't it smart of the Bengals to make a trade for someone that had an easy out in his contract in case said player was bad.
3.) Reality is he has been a tremendous player for us and has been much better than Fisher and OGB. Has he had some bad games ? Sure. Is he Whitworth? No but he is a lot closer to good then PFF or you would admit.

(11-30-2018, 10:39 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: However the Bengals do things, who could argue with their track record of 0 playoff wins over the past 26+ years?

I mean, what team wouldn't want to hire Tobin away as their GM!

We're the model baby!

You Clearly haven't payed attention to off season news over the years. Tobin has gotten looks to take over front offices and he has turned them down to stay here. Also you do realize that we have had 4 head coaches come from this staff since 2011.

(11-30-2018, 11:58 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 3.) Reality is he has been a tremendous player for us and has been much better than Fisher and OGB.

In what way, and in what games has Glenn been a "tremendous" player for the Bengals?  Even early on in the year, when they were winning, he was looking average at best.  People just didn't make such an issue of him, as the Offense was doing well.  For the Bengals to have made the decision to accept the contract for the 8th highest paid Tackle in the league, I would have expected much more from Cordy Glenn, than for him to only look average in good games.

(11-30-2018, 11:58 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: You Clearly haven't payed attention to off season news over the years. Tobin has gotten looks to take over front offices and he has turned them down to stay here.

I'm sure all those franchises are totally bummed they didn't blow a 1st round pick on Cedric Ogbuehi.

(11-30-2018, 11:58 AM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) Interesting you have no rebuttal to my first point
2.) What's wrong with what I said. If a team screws up are they just supposed to twittle their thumbs and say gee we suck or are they supposed to actually make a move to help their team.Yeah they made terrible decisions in personal but they realized it and wanted to getting better. Also wasn't it smart of the Bengals to make a trade for someone that had an easy out in his contract in case said player was bad.
3.) Reality is he has been a tremendous player for us and has been much better than Fisher and OGB. Has he had some bad games ? Sure. Is he Whitworth? No but he is a lot closer to good then PFF or you would admit.
You Clearly haven't payed attention to off season news over the years. Tobin has gotten looks to take over front offices and he has turned them down to stay here. Also you do realize that we have had 4 head coaches come from this staff since 2011.

My rebuttal to your 1st statement...is it's nonsense. PFF grades all players the same way. Whether Glenn had 4 Terrible games to earn his rating. Or 10 Bad games...doesn't matter.

He's the #62 ranked Tackle in the NFL. 61 guys are ranked better than him. 61!

(11-30-2018, 12:54 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: In what way, and in what games has Glenn been a "tremendous" player for the Bengals?  Even early on in the year, when they were winning, he was looking average at best.  People just didn't make such an issue of him, as the Offense was doing well.  For the Bengals to have made the decision to accept the contract for the 8th highest paid Tackle in the league, I would have expected much more from Cordy Glenn, than for him to only look average in good games.

Yeah, Glenn has been absolutely terrible and his run blocking is just as bad.

How someone can call him 'tremendous' I don't know.

I don't even think we could say Glenn had any great games. He's ranked the #62 best tackle by PFF.