(12-07-2018, 12:28 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Agreed,

But what puts a giant dent in Kirkpatrick's serviceableness is when taps into his inner pacman and goes running across the field on a play he wasn't even involved in and shoves a guy and draws a 15 yard penalty.

For nearly every really good play, he has a bonehead penalty to counter it.

Look at Dre's numbers...then look at the ones I posted above for Joseph. Joseph was soo much superior to any CB on our roster now that it isn't funny.

(12-07-2018, 12:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Look at Dre's numbers...then look at the ones I posted above for Joseph. Joseph was soo much superior to any CB on our roster now that it isn't funny.

Oh I agree ! Kirkpatrick couldn't hold a candle to JJ. Kirkpatrick is at best an average CB. But when you add in the dumb ass attacks he has regularly he blows his being serviceable out of the water.

(12-07-2018, 12:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh I agree ! Kirkpatrick couldn't hold a candle to JJ. Kirkpatrick is at best an average CB. But when you add in the dumb ass attacks he has regularly he blows his being serviceable out of the water.

Dennard is a bust. 3 Int's in 5 years and what 13 passes defensed?

That's pretty bad.

Most analytics people will tell you interceptions are somewhat of a luck thing rather than skill. You obviously want turnovers and our guys have had shots at interceptions, especially ones that have hit them, but there are a lot of things that go into INTs that are outside the CB's control. In general interceptions have gone down the last couple decades with the move to the spread/screen schemes so many teams run. Again, not saying we shouldn't have more but the perception of what is "a lot" of interceptions is skewed.

2017 - 25 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2016 - 20 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2015 - 23 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

If we go back 10 years...

2008- 28 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2007- 40 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2006- 32 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

Now in comparison if we jump back 20 years or so...

1998 - 41 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
1997 - 40 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
1996 - 42 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

(12-07-2018, 12:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: Most analytics people will tell you interceptions are somewhat of a luck thing rather than skill. You obviously want turnovers and our guys have had shots at interceptions, especially ones that have hit them, but there are a lot of things that go into INTs that are outside the CB's control. In general interceptions have gone down the last couple decades with the move to the spread/screen schemes so many teams run. Again, not saying we shouldn't have more but the perception of what is "a lot" of interceptions is skewed.

2017 - 25 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2016 - 20 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2015 - 23 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

If we go back 10 years...

2008- 28 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2007- 40 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2006- 32 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

Now in comparison if we jump back 20 years or so...

2000 - 45 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
1999 - 43 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
1998 - 41 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

That's why I included the PD's stat too. That's not a 'luck' stat.

(12-07-2018, 12:44 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: That's why I included the PD's stat too.

Again passes defended is tough to, because if they aren't throw at they can't defend a pass. It's not always because they are good either that they aren't being thrown at it can sometimes because other people are weaker, or because they were hurt and didn't play. You really want to look at things like their catch rate when targeted. 

(12-07-2018, 12:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: Most analytics people will tell you interceptions are somewhat of a luck thing rather than skill. You obviously want turnovers and our guys have had shots at interceptions, especially ones that have hit them, but there are a lot of things that go into INTs that are outside the CB's control. In general interceptions have gone down the last couple decades with the move to the spread/screen schemes so many teams run. Again, not saying we shouldn't have more but the perception of what is "a lot" of interceptions is skewed.

2017 - 25 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2016 - 20 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2015 - 23 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

If we go back 10 years...

2008- 28 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2007- 40 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
2006- 32 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

Now in comparison if we jump back 20 years or so...

1998 - 41 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
1997 - 40 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.
1996 - 42 players in the league had more than 3 interceptions.

Oh I agree, 

Int's alone don't define a CB just like sacks alone don't define a DE.

But looking at the whole package Dennard and Kirkpatrick have not performed at anything close to their 1st round status their entire careers.

Total busts is a bit to harsh but you can't spend 1st round draft picks on guys that struggle to be average.

(12-07-2018, 12:46 PM)Au165 Wrote: Again passes defended is tough to, because if they aren't throw at they can't defend a pass. It's not always because they are good either that they aren't being thrown at it can sometimes because other people are weaker, or because they were hurt and didn't play. You really want to look at things like their catch rate when targeted. 

Believe me...teams 'throw at' our CB's as is evidenced by the sheer amount of yards we give up.

(12-07-2018, 12:50 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Believe me...teams 'throw at' our CB's as is evidenced by the sheer amount of yards we give up.

I hate doing this, but yards can be deceiving lol. You have to understand how those yards were gained. We have done horribly between the hash marks. I love the analytic side of football and I think if you really drill down our inability to basically protect anything inside the hash marks has really left our whole defense at a complete loss. Man or Zone doesn't matter our LB's aren't good, and yes the Safeties and CB's have give up their share but the yardage given up by our linebackers I would guess is actually greater than our CB's which is insane. 

(12-07-2018, 12:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Look at Dre's numbers...then look at the ones I posted above for Joseph. Joseph was soo much superior to any CB on our roster now that it isn't funny.

Since 2015 Dre and Joseph have played the same number of games (56).  Dre has 4 ints and 49 PDs.  Joseph has 5 ints and 50 PDs.

(12-07-2018, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since 2015 Dre and Joseph have played the same number of games (56).  Dre has 4 ints and 49 PDs.  Joseph has 5 ints and 50 PDs.

Pretty sure he was talking about JJ as a Bengal. Not what he’s done in his 30’s in Houston.

I am not going to defend any part of our pass defense this year, but Kirkpatrick and Jackson have shown in previous years that they are capable of playing at a high level.  I think a lot of our problems have to do with the scheme.  I don't believe our players just suddenly forgot how to play.

(12-07-2018, 01:01 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Since 2015 Dre and Joseph have played the same number of games (56).  Dre has 4 ints and 49 PDs.  Joseph has 5 ints and 50 PDs.

I wonder if it made any difference that JJ was on his 10th year in the league in 2015 and Dre was on his 3rd ? 

(12-07-2018, 01:05 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am not going to defend any part of our pass defense this year, but Kirkpatrick and Jackson have shown in previous years that they are capable of playing at a high level.  I think a lot of our problems have to do with the scheme.  I don't believe our players just suddenly forgot how to play.

Kind of. One could argue Burfict has in fact lost it based on his technique in general just being bad. The other linebackers I'm not sure have ever been proven to be good at this point. Scheme plays a part, but in today's NFL I believe we are exposed for the lack of athleticism and skill at the second level. 

(12-07-2018, 12:38 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote:  Kirkpatrick is at best an average CB. But when you add in the dumb ass attacks he has regularly he blows his being serviceable out of the water.

(12-07-2018, 12:49 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: But looking at the whole package Dennard and Kirkpatrick have not performed at anything close to their 1st round status their entire careers.

Total busts is a bit to harsh but you can't spend 1st round draft picks on guys that struggle to be average.

Kirkpatrick has been a very good CB for us in the past. The hate for him around here is not warranted. 

In 2015 Dre played 97% of the snaps on a defense that finished ranked 5th in the league in pass efficiency. Of the 75 CBs that qualified for the stats compiled by ProFootballOutsiders Dre ranked 18th in yards per target allowed, 32nd in success rate (formula based on stats), and top 25 in completion percentage allowed.

In 2016 Dre played 94% of the snaps for a team that again finished 5th in pass efficiency. Individually he ranked 5th in the league in yds per play and 18th in success rate yet.

(12-07-2018, 01:14 PM)Au165 Wrote: Kind of. One could argue Burfict has in fact lost it based on his technique in general just being bad. The other linebackers I'm not sure have ever been proven to be good at this point. Scheme plays a part, but in today's NFL I believe we are exposed for the lack of athleticism and skill at the second level. 

Then how do you explain the fact that last year these same exact guys were part of a pass defense that ranked 13th in pass efficiency rating, 12th in fewest pass completions of 20+ yards, 8th in fewest passing tds allowed, and 3rd in fewest yards per attempt allowed?

(12-07-2018, 01:29 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then how do you explain the fact that last year these same exact guys were part of a pass defense that ranked 13th in pass efficiency rating, 12th in fewest pass completions of 20+ yards, 8th in fewest passing tds allowed, and 3rd in fewest yards per attempt allowed?

We had the fourth highest pressure rate of any team in the NFL. Pressure covers up a lot of issues in coverage and even when that same team that can pressure doesn't get pressure it is often still causing an impact because it is usually attributed to keeping extra blockers (i.e. less route runners) in to block.

By the way, Burfict is just shot at this point. His technique is bad and it has nothing to do with the scheme. 

They aren't doing their job.

(12-07-2018, 01:10 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I wonder if it made any difference that JJ was on his 10th year in the league in 2015 and Dre was on his 3rd ? 

Yeah Joseph was 31 in 2015.

If you compare his 2nd 5 years of his career with the Texans (Years 6-10) he had 12 interceptions and 74 PD's.

(12-07-2018, 01:42 PM)Au165 Wrote: We had the fourth highest pressure rate of any team in the NFL. 

What is your source for this claim and what is our pressure rate this year.