(12-07-2018, 05:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Yes, I am a happy person, but I am not happy when I feel "pain, disgust, and bad".  

So you should understand that these are temporary states of mind, yet you just don't seem to be able to grasp where your previous statements are extreme or hyperbolic.

(12-07-2018, 06:13 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Of course one doesn't feel happiness in the exact moment of feeling unhappiness. However, life is not live in any single moment, but rather an accumulation of them. You can feel angry and disgusted while watching the Bengals on a Sunday afternoon, yet perfectly happy the rest of the week. Again sir, these are not contradictory propositions. 

As to your second paragraph, I find it very distasteful to refer to people as pathetic because they may experience things differently than you. In fact sir, I think I'll end our discussion here as it seems you have not taken my advice at all and are continuing with the same fallacious arguments in which the conclusions are flawed because of poorly formed premises. 

Welcome to a Fredtoast debate brother

(12-06-2018, 05:52 PM)fredtoast Wrote: What pain? I though regular season games were meaningless. Only playoff games matter, amiright?

When the team hasn’t won a Playoff game since Vanilla Ice topped the charts then yes, only Playoff games matter. Any season that does not result in a trip to the Playoffs is an absolute failure. Losing that Playoff game is also a failure. The Bengals have been a failure for the entirety of Mike Brown’s ownership/GM tenure, as evidenced by his sparkling records in my signature.

The sad thing is apologists get on here and try to equivocate marginal regular season success with actual, legitimate success as a Super Bowl threat and perennial Playoff winning team. The organization is light years from competing for Lombardi’s, and it all starts with inept Mike and underachieving Marvin.

(12-07-2018, 06:13 PM)Lucidus Wrote: Of course one doesn't feel happiness in the exact moment of feeling unhappiness. However, life is not live in any single moment, but rather an accumulation of them. You can feel angry and disgusted while watching the Bengals on a Sunday afternoon, yet perfectly happy the rest of the week. Again sir, these are not contradictory propositions. 

As to your second paragraph, I find it very distasteful to refer to people as pathetic because they may experience things differently than you. In fact sir, I think I'll end our discussion here as it seems you have not taken my advice at all and are continuing with the same fallacious arguments in which the conclusions are flawed because of poorly formed premises. 

I am glad you are quitting because it is a waste of my time to try and have a debate with someone who just keeps making stuff up an moving the goalposts.

The OP claims that it is a bad to feel optimistic about the Bengals next year.  Godfather urges every one to cling to the pain, disgust, and bad feelings.  IN fact he says that if you feel optimistic you will be "in traction" if the Bengals fail next year.  That is total BS.

Then you come long and start talking about how it is possible to feel happy sometimes and bad other times but refusing to acknowledge that clinging to pain and bad feelings makes a person more sad than happy.

My premises are solid and my conclusions are sound.  You are not even discussing what the OP aid.  Instead you are spinning and making vague comments with no real basis in what we are talking about.  The fact that it is possible to feel bad sometimes and happy other times has nothing to do with the fact that people who work hard to preserve bad feelings are making themselves feel bad instead of good.

People who cling to and nurture feelings of "pain and disgust" are not as happy as people with positive optimistic outlooks unless they enjoy self pity and victimhood.  And being pessimistic does not ease the pain of failure because the pessimistic people here are admitting that they feel "bad", "disgusted" and "in pain" right now.  So there is no benefit to nurturing bad feelings.  All it does is make you feel bad.

(12-07-2018, 07:08 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: When the team hasn’t won a Playoff game since Vanilla Ice topped the charts then yes, only Playoff games matter.

Then why do you and so many others whine so hard after a regular season loss?

(12-07-2018, 07:08 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The sad thing is apologists get on here and try to equivocate marginal regular season success with actual, legitimate success as a Super Bowl threat and perennial Playoff winning team.

No one does that.

All I do is point out that the Bengals are not the worst team in the league.  Making the playoffs is not an "embarrassment".

I see the fans of the best teams in the league celebrate when they clinch a playoff spot.  If it has meaning to them then why can't it have meaning to us?  Why do you have to embellish your victim status and try to turn making the playoffs into total failure?

(12-07-2018, 07:25 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why do you and so many others whine so hard after a regular season loss?

Whine eh? You have to win enough regular season games to get to the part of the season that matters. Anything short of pushing for Playoff excellence and Super Bowls is a loser’s mentality. Even team apologists understand this basic logic. Sadly, the owner does not share it. Family jobs and profit margins are the chief concern each season. It’s why the team hasn’t won d1ck since Vanilla Ice’s heyday.

(12-07-2018, 07:30 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No one does that.

All I do is point out that the Bengals are not the worst team in the league.  Making the playoffs is not an "embarrassment".

I see the fans of the best teams in the league celebrate when they clinch a playoff spot.  If it has meaning to them then why can't it have meaning to us?  Why do you have to embellish your victim status and try to turn making the playoffs into total failure?

Getting embarrassed via an absolute meltdown in the Playoffs is an embarrassment. Having former players universally decry the petty cheapness of Mike Brown is embarrassing. Getting owned by the Steelers for the entirety of Marvin’s tenure is embarrassing. Having the league’s worst defense is embarrassing.

I don’t embrace “victim” status. Rather, I don’t accept mediocrity or the 60th percentile (aka 1st round Playoff exits) as you do. The reality is the Bengals are and have been among the most poorly run professional sports teams since Mike took over. The terrible record speaks for itself. Marvin has been merely average in the regular season, and historically bad in the Playoffs. Keep lapping up that success Fred. After 16 years of Marvin and 26 of Mike all you can bring up for celebration are a few Wild Card births and a few AFC North titles, which all led to subsequent Playoff losses.

In any other city the coach would have been fired years ago.

(12-07-2018, 07:58 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: I don’t embrace “victim” status.  Rather, I don’t accept mediocrity or the 60th percentile (aka 1st round Playoff exits) as you do.

I don't accept it either.  But I don't have to act like the 60th percentile is complete failure.

I've noticed that most people who try to pump themselves up with the "I don't accept mediocrity" BS generally lead very mediocre lives.  For example they tend to be obsessed with losers like Vanilla Ice.

I am just as disappointed with playoff losses as you.  I just don't see the need to embellish my victim status.  It is still better to make the playoffs and lose than not make the playoffs.

(12-07-2018, 07:58 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote:  The reality is the Bengals are and have been among the most poorly run professional sports teams since Mike took over.  The terrible record speaks for itself.

The record does speak for itself.  Bengals were the worst team in the league '92-'02, but they have had some success since they hired Marvin.  Not nearly enough success, but far from the complete failure you cry about.

(12-07-2018, 07:08 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: When the team hasn’t won a Playoff game since Vanilla Ice topped the charts then yes, only Playoff games matter. 

(12-07-2018, 07:48 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: You have to win enough regular season games to get to the part of the season that matters. 

So which is it?

Being a fan of this team provides a great opportunity to practice letting go of my attachments to how I hope things will go. When you step back and look at this team, we're kind of a laughing stock. All we can do is accept it. Maybe one day it'll change. Nothing I do will make this team more successful. All I can do is watch.

I've reached the point of the season where I don't care and the only thing I realistically look forward to is the inevitable miss on next year's draft.. The best I'm hoping for is to be completely wrong and they absolutely knock it out of the park with the draft and grab both the offensive ROTY and defensive ROTY AND have a  great new coaching staff ..
How I would love to be wrong just once in my life .

Oh wait. .I mean just wrong once come draft day(s).. I'm usually pretty pesimistic come draft time..

(12-06-2018, 08:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: It won't matter.  If we go 5-11 you all will be bawling your eyes out.

Teams that look good don't go 5-11.  People are already ripping Price as a bust and wanting to move on from him despite the fact that he is not only a rookie, but he has also been injured.  If we go 5-11 anyone who says anything positive will be criticized for "accepting losing".

How many fans of other teams are happy at 5-11? People want a new direction and philosophy. Sometimes you have to start from scratch and set a new foundation and there could be growing pains going in a new direction. The ultimate goal is to build something better. 16 years is too long to go in the same direction if you’ve already peaked and have slipped back to being mediocre. It’s way past time for change, surely you can’t deny that.

(12-07-2018, 07:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I am glad you are quitting because it is a waste of my time to try and have a debate with someone who just keeps making stuff up an moving the goalposts.

The OP claims that it is a bad to feel optimistic about the Bengals next year.  Godfather urges every one to cling to the pain, disgust, and bad feelings.  IN fact he says that if you feel optimistic you will be "in traction" if the Bengals fail next year.  That is total BS.

Then you come long and start talking about how it is possible to feel happy sometimes and bad other times but refusing to acknowledge that clinging to pain and bad feelings makes a person more sad than happy.

My premises are solid and my conclusions are sound.  You are not even discussing what the OP aid.  Instead you are spinning and making vague comments with no real basis in what we are talking about.  The fact that it is possible to feel bad sometimes and happy other times has nothing to do with the fact that people who work hard to preserve bad feelings are making themselves feel bad instead of good.

People who cling to and nurture feelings of "pain and disgust" are not as happy as people with positive optimistic outlooks unless they enjoy self pity and victimhood.  And being pessimistic does not ease the pain of failure because the pessimistic people here are admitting that they feel "bad", "disgusted" and "in pain" right now.  So there is no benefit to nurturing bad feelings.  All it does is make you feel bad.

I've honestly and with the best of intentions, tried to help you with tips and constructive criticism that I had hoped would help you recognize the flaws and failings of your argumentation style. Either you are not comprehending -- or you are refusing to acknowledge the issue -- or you're being purposefully obtuse and pretending. There are other options of course, but in the spirit of civil discourse, I won't expand. 

I will just bid you a good evening sir.

(12-07-2018, 10:11 PM)Lucidus Wrote: I've honestly and with the best of intentions, tried to help you with tips and constructive criticism that I had hoped would help you recognize the flaws and failings of your argumentation style. Either you are not comprehending -- or you are refusing to acknowledge the issue -- or you're being purposefully obtuse and pretending. There are other options of course, but in the spirit of civil discourse, I won't expand. 

The other option is that you are wrong.

If you had an actual answer to what I said you would have stated it.  Instead you just talked about how you were right and I was wrong.

Why waste the time to type a post if your only comment is "You are wrong because I say so".  At least I took the time to quote directly from the OP and show specifically where your argument failed.

The fact that people can be happy sometimes and feel bad other times is no explanation for why anyone should specifically work at preserving feelings of "pain" and "disgust". 

And finally.  .  .  

(12-07-2018, 08:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't accept it either.  But I don't have to act like the 60th percentile is complete failure.

I've noticed that most people who try to pump themselves up with the "I don't accept mediocrity" BS generally lead very mediocre lives.  For example they tend to be obsessed with losers like Vanilla Ice.

I am just as disappointed with playoff losses as you.  I just don't see the need to embellish my victim status.  It is still better to make the playoffs and lose than not make the playoffs.



The record does speak for itself.  Bengals were the worst team in the league '92-'02, but they have had some success since they hired Marvin.  Not nearly enough success, but far from the complete failure you cry about.

Vanilla ice is a loser??

I think I can end this discussion




This kitten says I am right.

Fred, I think what Lucidus is trying to tell you is that while watching the Bengals maybe painful, it doesn't necessarily make someone so upset that they walk out into traffic.

Perhaps they might go bake some cookies after the game. And eat one. And be happy.

(12-07-2018, 06:41 PM)rfaulk34 Wrote: So you should understand that these are temporary states of mind, yet you just don't seem to be able to grasp where your previous statements are extreme or hyperbolic.

(12-08-2018, 01:59 PM)2MinutesHate Wrote: Fred,  I think what Ludicus is trying to tell you is that while watching the Bengals maybe painful, it doesn't necessarily make someone so upset that they walk out into traffic.

Perhaps they might go bake some cookies after the game.  And eat one.  And be happy.

Indeed gentlemen. Very well stated. 

(12-06-2018, 08:00 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Let's hope they shit can Marvin and there's a least hope for the future.

I fully expect Marvin Lewis to be retained through 2019 with the "injury excuse" being the deciding factor.  I don't think the Front Office "gets it."