.....and I'll add....it most certainly DOES appear that Cooper swung on Jones just before they go out of the frame.  Can anyone here say definitively that what happens there isn't Cooper throwing a punch?

If it is indeed a punch, would that change your opinion?

(09-17-2015, 04:26 PM)Wyche Wrote: ....I can agree that part is most likely a very overzealous stiff arm....but watch the tail end of the video, and keep your eyes on those two as the ball carrier goes out of bounds.

The vine video controlling the speed and ability to go frame by frame isn't there.  I'd like to have a look at that as a download to harddrive file so I can play it in a player with those capabilities.  The best I could do is the link in the thread here and using a downloader but the picture is smaller.  The smaller form show Coopers hand making contact and staying in place.  When people punch or hit in that fashion, no one I know of leaves their hand in place as well as overall it looks like he began to "directly engage" Jones in a block since their bodies come together and don't separate.  The larger I'd like to see in a player because it appears, as is, Cooper MAY HAVE been going for Jones' shoulder pad but Jones himself may have caused Cooper's hand to go higher.

Part of the reason I do understand Adam's reaction is he did seem to be slowing down when he saw the ball carrier go out of bounds but Amari, who might not have seen it since he was squaring to directly engage, continued full blast.  Not saying Jones was right or wrong there, but I understand getting angry.

(09-17-2015, 06:36 PM)RoyleRedlegs Wrote: What excuses?

That what people called a throat punch may have just been a stiff arm?
Did anyone say Cooper made a clean good football move?
No. He made an illegal football move and it should have been called. It wasn't.
Doesn't make what Pacman did any better or less shitty no matter what you call it. 

The only place I disagree is the question of legality.  Was it clean? I'd say no.  Was it legal?  Barring what I asked for above to further review I don't see any evidence.  SHOULD it be illegal (the stiff arm)?  Yes. Hands to the face needs to be expanded to include all stiff arms.

(09-17-2015, 06:38 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: The thing that really concerns me is that afterwards he said he couldn't promise it wouldn't happen again.  To me this means that everyone playing against him is going to be trying to provoke him into more personal foul penalties.  He absolutely can't control his temper.

Agreed.  I remember when I lived in the Chiefs market I'd see them against the Raiders twice a year.  The Chiefs players in later years would admit to instigating outburst by certain players (like Chester McGlockton) to either draw penalties or get them fighting with each other.

(09-17-2015, 07:19 PM)Penn Wrote: The vine video controlling the speed and ability to go frame by frame isn't there.  I'd like to have a look at that as a download to harddrive file so I can play it in a player with those capabilities.  The best I could do is the link in the thread here and using a downloader but the picture is smaller.  The smaller form show Coopers hand making contact and staying in place.  When people punch or hit in that fashion, no one I know of leaves their hand in place as well as overall it looks like he began to "directly engage" Jones in a block since their bodies come together and don't separate.  The larger I'd like to see in a player because it appears, as is, Cooper MAY HAVE been going for Jones' shoulder pad but Jones himself may have caused Cooper's hand to go higher.

Part of the reason I do understand Adam's reaction is he did seem to be slowing down when he saw the ball carrier go out of bounds but Amari, who might not have seen it since he was squaring to directly engage, continued full blast.  Not saying Jones was right or wrong there, but I understand getting angry.


The only place I disagree is the question of legality.  Was it clean? I'd say no.  Was it legal?  Barring what I asked for above to further review I don't see any evidence.  SHOULD it be illegal (the stiff arm)?  No. Hands to the face needs to be expanded to include all stiff arms.


Agreed.  I remember when I lived in the Chiefs market I'd see them against the Raiders twice a year.  The Chiefs players in later years would admit to instigating outburst by certain players (like Chester McGlockton) to either draw penalties or get them fighting with each other.

Good points as well....that would certainly be definitive. I'd also like to see the missing bit of film between them engaging, and the takedown.

....but I dunno Penn....every time I watch the vine...I see him take what looks like a swing at Pacman...and the video stops there.

(09-17-2015, 07:19 PM)Penn Wrote: The only place I disagree is the question of legality.  Was it clean? I'd say no.  Was it legal?  Barring what I asked for above to further review I don't see any evidence.  SHOULD it be illegal (the stiff arm)?  Yes. Hands to the face needs to be expanded to include all stiff arms.

You can't stiff arm without the ball, hence illegal 

(09-17-2015, 05:54 PM)Wyche Wrote: So....you've studied the in depth details....are you saying that it doesn't look like a punch may have been thrown by Cooper at the tail end of the video?  If so....that's not very objective....

Going against your team doesn't always mean you're the only one being "objective". I'm calling it how I see it as well. 

I think Cooper clearly started it with the dirty "stiff arm". Then he pretty clearly took a swing at Pacman as that clip ended.

Did Jones go a bit far? Maybe, but he was justified to retaliate IMO. Hopefully next time they go about it in a smarter manner though.

(09-18-2015, 12:54 AM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Going against your team doesn't always mean you're the only one being "objective". I'm calling it how I see it as well. 

I think Cooper clearly started it with the dirty "stiff arm". Then he pretty clearly took a swing at Pacman as that clip ended.

Did Jones go a bit far? Maybe, but he was justified to retaliate IMO. Hopefully next time they go about it in a smarter manner though.

The thing that bothered me was everyone up in arms because Cooper "punched Jones in the throat". If you pause the Vine, you can clearly see that it's not a punch and not his throat.

I think being objective isn't automatically defending the other team but being able to recognize video evidence of something where you can clearly see Cooper's palm open (hence not a punch or jab) and clearly see his hand on the face mask (not his throat).

I know you're buddies with jj, but you didn't have to jump in and say that I "wasn't truthful" when I was clearly the one correct in our argument. It was an illegal stiff arm to the face mask, and the video 100% proves that.

I'm not even defending what Cooper did to him, I thought he deserved blasted for the hair pulling, palming his face with quite a bit of force like he did, and then like everyone said it looks like he swung at Jones in some capacity when the video is cutting off. That's messed up and deserves retaliation.

The only things I've said in this thread is 1. Jones should have retaliated on a later play between the whistles. 2. The one "punch to the throat" that got everyone fired up wasn't a punch to the throat.

I think that's being pretty reasonable here and pretty far from blindly defending Cooper and/or bashing Jones. People need glasses if they can't see that stiff arm or else they just refuse to pause the Vine because it would hurt their argument.

(09-18-2015, 07:32 AM)djs7685 Wrote: The thing that bothered me was everyone up in arms because Cooper "punched Jones in the throat". If you pause the Vine, you can clearly see that it's not a punch and not his throat.

I think being objective isn't automatically defending the other team but being able to recognize video evidence of something where you can clearly see Cooper's palm open (hence not a punch or jab) and clearly see his hand on the face mask (not his throat).

I know you're buddies with jj, but you didn't have to jump in and say that I "wasn't truthful" when I was clearly the one correct in our argument. It was an illegal stiff arm to the face mask, and the video 100% proves that.

I'm not even defending what Cooper did to him, I thought he deserved blasted for the hair pulling, palming his face with quite a bit of force like he did, and then like everyone said it looks like he swung at Jones in some capacity when the video is cutting off. That's messed up and deserves retaliation.

The only things I've said in this thread is 1. Jones should have retaliated on a later play between the whistles. 2. The one "punch to the throat" that got everyone fired up wasn't a punch to the throat.

I think that's being pretty reasonable here and pretty far from blindly defending Cooper and/or bashing Jones. People need glasses if they can't see that stiff arm or else they just refuse to pause the Vine because it would hurt their argument.

......BUT...Adam Jones is the one who said Cooper went for his throat....and maybe, just maybe....that happens at the end of that vine.  There's fairly compelling evidence that is indeed the case.

Point #1 you make is a good point for sure.

(09-18-2015, 09:41 AM)Wyche Wrote: ......BUT...Adam Jones is the one who said Cooper went for his throat....and maybe, just maybe....that happens at the end of that vine.  There's fairly compelling evidence that is indeed the case.

Point #1 you make is a good point for sure.

But that's not what people have been talking about. I'm arguing with the people that have been claiming that the open palmed stiff arm to the face mask was a "jab to the throat". THAT is what I'm arguing and have been arguing. I have never claimed that there isn't a possibility of what Cooper did after the end of the clip and that's not what I've been refuting.

I was told that the stiff arm was a "punch/jab to the throat". There is video evidence saying otherwise. People are still refusing to admit they were wrong.

Whether Jones should have done something about it between the whistles or as he did is an entirely different discussion. I'll happily agree to disagree on that portion of it. I'm not going to agree to disagree on something that's factual based with video evidence, and I'm not going to be told that I'm "not truthful" because I refuse to lie about something that I can see with my own eyes in a video clip. It's sad that people can't just own up to something when they're wrong around here. I've done so myself plenty of times, especially when someone posts video proof.

(09-17-2015, 12:48 PM)jj22 Wrote: I just don't think it was a stiff arm in the football sense. I've never saw a stiff arm from a non-ball carrier. So that was a jab (double) to the throat. Lets call it what it was and I'm fine with everyones opinion on the outcome.

(09-17-2015, 01:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: That'd be way too easy (and truthful).

These posts have nothing to do with what happened after the Vine. The entire argument was about the portion of the incident where Cooper blatantly extended his arm into Jones in the clip. Basically it was the big move that set everything off.

I know these 2 guy are your buddies, but we can call this as it deserves to be called and it is anything but truthful to call it a "jab to the throat". That's absurd if you take the 2 seconds to pause the Vine on the incident.

I just want to know why everyone is dead set on calling it a "jab to the throat". Why blatantly lie about something we can see on video? Yeah, Ray Rice didn't hit his fiance in that elevator either, right? Anybody calling it a "jab to the throat" hasn't been able to own up and admit they were wrong yet. It would be nice to see, but I won't hold my breath.

(09-18-2015, 09:50 AM)djs7685 Wrote: But that's not what people have been talking about. I'm arguing with the people that have been claiming that the open palmed stiff arm to the face mask was a "jab to the throat". THAT is what I'm arguing and have been arguing. I have never claimed that there isn't a possibility of what Cooper did after the end of the clip and that's not what I've been refuting.

I was told that the stiff arm was a "punch/jab to the throat". There is video evidence saying otherwise. People are still refusing to admit they were wrong.

Whether Jones should have done something about it between the whistles or as he did is an entirely different discussion. I'll happily agree to disagree on that portion of it. I'm not going to agree to disagree on something that's factual based with video evidence, and I'm not going to be told that I'm "not truthful" because I refuse to lie about something that I can see with my own eyes in a video clip. It's sad that people can't just own up to something when they're wrong around here. I've done so myself plenty of times, especially when someone posts video proof.

Gotcha....as I said earlier.....I hadn't read through all of the replies here, and I would take your word that was indeed the case.  I've never known you to be dishonest on anything you post.  Confrontational and combative?  You betcha!   .....but not dishonest.

This post makes it clearer for me now....I was under the impression that you were arguing that there wasn't the potential for a punch to the neck area at all, instead, you guys are arguing about WHEN it may have happened.  You'll have to forgive me....been a crazy week at work...30 hours in two days, plus the regular 10 all the rest.  I'm starting to run on fumes....my mind isn't grasping simple concepts....lol.

I played up through the high school level....I can certainly understand the anger and high emotion that led Jones to do what he did.  It may have been over the top....but I can relate to where he's coming from....the intensity at this level must be unimaginable.

EDIT: You mean we ain't buddies? :frown:

(09-18-2015, 10:08 AM)Wyche Wrote: Gotcha....as I said earlier.....I hadn't read through all of the replies here, and I would take your word that was indeed the case.  I've never known you to be dishonest on anything you post.  Confrontational and combative?  You betcha!   .....but not dishonest.

This post makes it clearer for me now....I was under the impression that you were arguing that there wasn't the potential for a punch to the neck area at all, instead, you guys are arguing about WHEN it may have happened.  You'll have to forgive me....been a crazy week at work...30 hours in two days, plus the regular 10 all the rest.  I'm starting to run on fumes....my mind isn't grasping simple concepts....lol.

I played up through the high school level....I can certainly understand the anger and high emotion that led Jones to do what he did.  It may have been over the top....but I can relate to where he's coming from....the intensity at this level must be unimaginable.

Yeah, I have no doubt that Cooper deserved roughed up at some point (I just personally wish it would have happened during a play), but as others said the thing I'm most worried about is when Jones said that he "can't promise it won't happen again".

The only thing that has really bothered me is that a lot of people throughout many threads on these boards have been referring to that stiff arm as a "throat punch", even after watching the Vine and other clips of the incident. You can clearly see an open hand and the fact that he didn't touch Jones' throat. As far as any other portion of the incident goes, I haven't really been involved with arguments discussing that stuff. I just maintain that I really wish he would have let it go and then blasted Cooper on one of the next plays instead. If the officials actually saw the fight and Jones push Cooper head into the helmet, he would have 100% been ejected from the game. We don't need that from our best CB.

The thing that bothered me the most about the exchanges that I've been having is when Shake flat out said that "That'd be way too easy (and truthful)" when referring to myself and anybody else refusing to call the specific portion of the incident a "throat punch". That's not cool.

You and I have always been cool on here, Shake and JJ were guys I consistently had great discussions with and agreed on a lot of stuff, especially for the few months before the old board shut down. There aren't many people here that I legitimately dislike, it's just a message board, but I must say that it's sad to see JJ acting different now than he did before. There are no more good arguments, everything that he says just contradicts what he's saying in a different thread or else he just posts to instigate by bashing part of the fanbase with almost every post on here. It is what it is, I guess.

(09-18-2015, 10:17 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Yeah, I have no doubt that Cooper deserved roughed up at some point (I just personally wish it would have happened during a play), but as others said the thing I'm most worried about is when Jones said that he "can't promise it won't happen again".

The only thing that has really bothered me is that a lot of people throughout many threads on these boards have been referring to that stiff arm as a "throat punch", even after watching the Vine and other clips of the incident. You can clearly see an open hand and the fact that he didn't touch Jones' throat. As far as any other portion of the incident goes, I haven't really been involved with arguments discussing that stuff. I just maintain that I really wish he would have let it go and then blasted Cooper on one of the next plays instead. If the officials actually saw the fight and Jones push Cooper head into the helmet, he would have 100% been ejected from the game. We don't need that from our best CB.

The thing that bothered me the most about the exchanges that I've been having is when Shake flat out said that "That'd be way too easy (and truthful)" when referring to myself and anybody else refusing to call the specific portion of the incident a "throat punch". That's not cool.

Yes....but did you see my edit?  That's most important here....


.....but seriously...the bolded concerns me too.  We certainly don't need something like this getting him ejected or suspended down the stretch or hampering a potential playoff run.  I appreciate the fire and intensity...it's something I think this team has been lacking in.  I also feel we have been taught to always take the high road when things like this happen, and that shit just doesn't always fly, to be frank.  You have to punch bullies back in the chops sometimes....so I applaud Adam for showing folks we won't tolerate this crap.  However, there's a fine line you have to walk there.....hopefully the staff has shown Jones where and what that line is.

(09-17-2015, 06:38 PM)BonnieBengal Wrote: The thing that really concerns me is that afterwards he said he couldn't promise it wouldn't happen again.  To me this means that everyone playing against him is going to be trying to provoke him into more personal foul penalties.  He absolutely can't control his temper.

Completely, 110% agree with you.  He has been around long enough to know better.  You say something like "I'm sorry that I cost the team 15 yards.  I let my emotions get the better of me, but can't allow that to happen in the future".

I look at the situation where he punched the girl a couple years ago.  Yes, I know that he was found not guilty, but it still does not mean he should have allowed it to go that far.  I watched the tape and immediately thought "why didn't you walk away".  How many fights and alterations has he been in that he could have walked away?  It would seem you are dead on about not being able to control his temper.

(09-18-2015, 10:17 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Yeah, I have no doubt that Cooper deserved roughed up at some point (I just personally wish it would have happened during a play), but as others said the thing I'm most worried about is when Jones said that he "can't promise it won't happen again".

The only thing that has really bothered me is that a lot of people throughout many threads on these boards have been referring to that stiff arm as a "throat punch", even after watching the Vine and other clips of the incident. You can clearly see an open hand and the fact that he didn't touch Jones' throat. As far as any other portion of the incident goes, I haven't really been involved with arguments discussing that stuff. I just maintain that I really wish he would have let it go and then blasted Cooper on one of the next plays instead. If the officials actually saw the fight and Jones push Cooper head into the helmet, he would have 100% been ejected from the game. We don't need that from our best CB.

The thing that bothered me the most about the exchanges that I've been having is when Shake flat out said that "That'd be way too easy (and truthful)" when referring to myself and anybody else refusing to call the specific portion of the incident a "throat punch". That's not cool.

You and I have always been cool on here, Shake and JJ were guys I consistently had great discussions with and agreed on a lot of stuff, especially for the few months before the old board shut down. There aren't many people here that I legitimately dislike, it's just a message board, but I must say that it's sad to see JJ acting different now than he did before. There are no more good arguments, everything that he says just contradicts what he's saying in a different thread or else he just posts to instigate by bashing part of the fanbase with almost every post on here. It is what it is, I guess.

I haven't changed and I've always trolled the trolls. And we never was "cool". I remember the offseason of 2014, when Mully was your ace, and both of you were considered trolls on the old board. New folks may not remember but I do.  If anyone has tried to reinvent themselves it's you. And more power to you.  

Say I changed all you want, but I'm not rushing to Coopers defense, and wouldn't have at the old board either.  If you continue to want to and take shots at me for supporting Jones then that's you, but leave me out of it.

(09-18-2015, 11:48 AM)jj22 Wrote: I haven't changed and I've always trolled the trolls. And we never was "cool". I remember the offseason of 2014, when Mully was your ace, and both of you were considered trolls on the old board. New folks may not remember but I do.  If anyone has tried to reinvent themselves it's you. And more power to you.  

Say I changed all you want, but I'm not rushing to Coopers defense, and wouldn't have at the old board either.  If you continue to want to and take shots at me for supporting Jones then that's you, but leave me out of it.

I was never considered a "troll" by anyone that knows the definition of the word. I've added more substance to a thread with 1 post than you have with every post combined. You are the definition of a troll on this board since every single post lacks substance and does nothing but instigate. Do you really not know what a troll is?

You're a hypocrite because of different threads, in this one you just sound unintelligent for watching a video and flat out lying about what you see. That's insane and that makes you a crazy person.

I'm not going to leave you out of it when you refuse to admit that you're wrong when the video PROVES that you are, in fact, wrong. What's so hard to understand about that? I'm not defending anything Cooper did, I'm just pointing out exactly what he did in the video, here in reality.

I didn't watch your vine because I'm not trying to go out of my way to make excuses for and Oakland Raider in Cooper. I watched the game and saw how it all unfolded. I think you just pay a little too much attention to me personally. But I don't mind you (all attacks aside). We ain't "cool", but you a Bengals fan and that's enough for me to respect your opinion because you have come a long way from the days since Mully got banned.

Next time square up and block Jones. Folks acting like a stiff arm (to the face area) is a blocking technique they see in everyday football from non ball carriers strike me as doing too much to make excuses for Cooper. Sorry, call me all the names you want, but that's a stretch. I'll keep my eye on games to see if it happens.

(09-18-2015, 12:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: I didn't watch your vine because I'm not trying to go out of my way to make excuses for and Oakland Raider in Cooper. I watched the game and saw how it all unfolded. I think you just pay a little too much attention to me personally. But I don't mind you (all attacks aside). We ain't "cool", but you a Bengals fan and that's enough for me to respect your opinion because you have come a long way from the days since Mully got banned.

So you admit you didn't re-watch what happened, but you're fine continuing your crusade of saying that we're "making excuses" when we're simply pointing out what actually happened?

No excuses, just pointing out reality. Open hand, not his throat. Not a "throat punch". That's it, it's not an excuse. What don't you understand about that?

I just seriously don't understand how it's possible that you can't comprehend this situation. Why do you keep calling it an excuse when it's not an excuse? Are you seriously proud of not understanding words and sentences?

(09-18-2015, 12:32 PM)jj22 Wrote: Next time square up and block Jones. Folks acting like a stiff arm is a blocking technique they see in everyday football from non ball carriers strike me as doing too much to make excuses for Cooper. Sorry, call me all the names you want, but that's a stretch. But I'll keep my eye on games to see if it happens.

Okay, so we're just to the point where you can't read/comprehend words. Gotcha.

Nobody has ever said that a stiff arm is a blocking technique they see everyday in football. In fact, we've gone out of our way to point out how Cooper's action was an ILLEGAL move and that he shouldn't have done it. He's a dick, he was doing dick-like things. Nobody is defending or "excusing" Cooper of anything.

You're calling it a throat punch though when Jones didn't get punched (at the point we're discussing) and didn't get hit in the throat (at the point we're discussing). That's all I'm saying here, nothing more and nothing less. For some reason, you can't seem to grasp that.

Why should I re-watch something over again to justify the actions of an Oakland Raider? I saw the video initially and your desperate to defend Cooper vine isn't going to change my opinion on it.