(12-15-2018, 05:35 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: 18 replies by only 6 different people other than me, so your that's not really a fair point to say 18, which why wouldn't you post that if you were trying to say how many people disagree with me?  Empty rhetoric is the answer.

You and other people are claiming that he's a good person because his teammates aren't bashing him, but guess who else they haven't bashed?

Ben Roethlisberger.

Even Steelers fans on here have admitted that Ben's a piece of shit (you may have even done it), but they all must be wrong since his teammates never say it, right?

Once again you are replying to an argument that no one is making. Nobody is claiming that he's a good person. They’re just claiming that he deserves another chance. Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they should be assumed to take the extreme opposite position. Usually, people who disagree do so on more nuanced grounds than that.

I’d try to explain in more detail what people are really saying, but if you can’t get it from what’s already been written here and elsewhere, you probably never will.

(12-15-2018, 07:28 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: Nobody is claiming that he's a good person.  Just because someone disagrees with you doesn’t mean that they should be assumed to take the extreme opposite position.  Usually, people who disagree do so on more nuanced grounds than that.  

I’d explain what people are really saying, but if you can’t get it from what’s already been written, you probably never will.

HOLY SHIT!  You're contradicting yourself again!

You just said that he's a good person because his teammates say he is!

Then, you try and put up a blocker that would keep me from responding with that last sentence and you just hope that I'm too stupid to see through your bullshit!

(12-15-2018, 07:33 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: HOLY SHIT!  You're contradicting yourself again!

You just said that he's a good person because his teammates say he is!

Then, you try and put up a blocker that would keep me from responding with that last sentence and you just hope that I'm too stupid to see through your bullshit!

You read that into what I wrote. I said that his teammates have decided not to hold the tweet against him because they believe it doesn’t reflect who he is now. Implying that his teammates believe he no longer holds his 18-year-old racist attitudes is not the same thing as saying he’s a universally good person. You’re the one who added that, not me.

I am not responsible for your inability to understand nuance.

(12-15-2018, 07:37 PM)JS-Steelerfan Wrote: You read that into what I wrote. I said that his teammates have decided not to hold the tweet against him because they believe it doesn’t reflect who he is now.  Implying that his teammates believe he no longer holds his 18-year-old racist attitudes is not the same thing as saying he’s a universally good person. You’re the one who added that, not me.

I am not responsible for your inability to understand nuance.

And back to my point that none of his teammates say that they hold Ben's actions against him.

You're going in circles.

You also don't know his teammates true thoughts.  They're not going to come out and say "yeah, he's an asshole," when they know he won't be punished or anything.

It was most definitely a poor, and rather vulgar, display on this gentleman's part. However, it was some years ago while a teenager in high school, while going through very formative years in which the mind and self are still very much in developmental stage, in which they are informed by things such as internal conflicts, external experiences and environmental pressures.

The gentleman has acknowledged that the tweets were "bad choices" and "totally unacceptable". If he has done nothing similar since, and those who interact with him on a daily basis find it's not how he conducts himself as an adult, then I think it reasonable to forgive him, with the assumption that he no longer feels the same.

To continue to hold one accountable for poor word choices -- or even irrational feelings -- years after the fact, when there is no evidence that they still feel or act in the same way, seems to be overkill. If an apology was given and explanation offered, we should assume that the individual has grown and matured, unless there is evidence to the contrary.

(12-15-2018, 07:55 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It was most definitely a poor, and rather vulgar, display on this gentleman's part. However, it was some years ago while a teenager in high school, while going through very formative years in which the mind and self are still very much in developmental stage, in which they are informed by things such as internal conflicts, external experiences and environmental pressures.

The gentleman has acknowledged that the tweets were "bad choices" and "totally unacceptable". If he has done nothing similar since, and those who interact with him on a daily basis find it's not how he conducts himself as an adult, then I think it reasonable to forgive him, with the assumption that he no longer feels the same.

To continue to hold one accountable for poor word choices -- or even irrational feelings -- years after the fact, when there is no evidence that they still feel or act in the same way, seems to be overkill. If an apology was given and explanation offered, we should assume that the individual has grown and matured, unless there is evidence to the contrary.

This. ^

(12-15-2018, 07:52 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: And back to my point that none of his teammates say that they hold Ben's actions against him.

You're going in circles.

You also don't know his teammates true thoughts.  They're not going to come out and say "yeah, he's an asshole," when they know he won't be punished or anything.

You made that argument based on a faulty assumption, namely that I considered the guy to be a saint. Since you seem intent on continuing to spiral out in multiple directions, I'll simply refer you to Lucidus' excellent post, which gets to the heart of the matter. If you disagree with the core of what he says there, there's not much sense in carrying this any further except to agree to disagree.

EDIT: By the way, you misspelled "seems" in the OP.  

(12-15-2018, 07:55 PM)Lucidus Wrote: It was most definitely a poor, and rather vulgar, display on this gentleman's part. However, it was some years ago while a teenager in high school, while going through very formative years in which the mind and self are still very much in developmental stage, in which they are informed by things such as internal conflicts, external experiences and environmental pressures.

The gentleman has acknowledged that the tweets were "bad choices" and "totally unacceptable". If he has done nothing similar since, and those who interact with him on a daily basis find it's not how he conducts himself as an adult, then I think it reasonable to forgive him, with the assumption that he no longer feels the same.

To continue to hold one accountable for poor word choices -- or even irrational feelings -- years after the fact, when there is no evidence that they still feel or act in the same way, seems to be overkill. If an apology was given and explanation offered, we should assume that the individual has grown and matured, unless there is evidence to the contrary.

Stop being rational. There's no room for this kind of shit in a Brad thread. You've ruined it. 

If he was 18, he was not a kid, he was an adult old enough to go fight in wars. The 18 age has nothing to do with maturity. It is a lousy excuse to excuse something that should not be tolerated.....by anyone at any age. Everyone matures at a different age normally due to parenting, I was married at 18, I was mature enough to find and marry the woman of my dreams. We will celebrate year 44 in January. I knew what I wanted and I knew at 18 it was my responsibility to be responsible for my actions.

I do believe in second chances and people make mistakes. Hopefully, he takes full accountability and is truly sorry, if so God will forgive him so we should also.

(12-16-2018, 09:40 AM)StrictlyBiz Wrote: Stop being rational. There's no room for this kind of shit in a Brad thread. You've ruined it. 

I think Brad may actually be allergic to objectivity. We're gonna need an irrational Bengal fan to come in here and affirm his post before he goes into anaphylactic shock. Where's that Cat-whatever guy?

Not acceptable at all. Even at 16, you know better. Ultimately it is on him to prove himself now that he is an adult. Seems like his teammates believe he is a more mature person now.

Always disappointing when this occurs on your own team. As fans, all we can do is stick to our own values and decry this sort of behavior even when the guy is on our team. It's tempting to dismiss their behavior as "just kids", whether it's punching a woman in the face or using the N word on twitter.

Well depending on when the tweets were written in 2011 and 2012, guy could be as young as 16, or as old as 18, since he was born on May 27, 1994. His teammates seem to think that's not the kind of guy he is. If they're willing to give him a second chance, I don't see why anyone else shouldn't be willing enough to as well. I said and done some pretty stupid things at 16-18, heck I still do and say some pretty stupid things. As much as I hate the Ravens players, I can't hate on a guy just for making a stupid tweet. Yes he was a bonehead, but having to be around his black teammates, knowing he made racist tweets, is enough punishment for me.