(12-17-2018, 04:20 PM)Synric Wrote: What is Andy Dalton biggest issue? What makes him 10 to 15 QB instead of a top 5?

I said Dalton has had top 10 talent surrounding him for most of his career, not that he himself is top 10. Dalton is below average.

(12-17-2018, 04:21 PM)jj22 Wrote: Well then we can mention Thomas, Beckham, Cooper, Thielen, Evans, JuJu, Keenan Allen etc.

But this isn't about where Green stands so lets get back to the point of the thread.

You also forgot.


Julio
DaVante Adams
DeAndre Hopkins


Fair to say all three names could make an argument for being better or as good as AJ Green. It is a receiver league. I think almost every team has a comparable talent. 

(12-17-2018, 04:03 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Offensive line gave up 46 sacks in 2012. 
Run game had an average rank of 22nd in yards per carry and 15th in yards.
Defense finished 22nd in 2014 and 11th in 2015.

As for Special Teams, we had average rankings of:

19th in FG%
8th in net punt average
16th in Kick Return average
11th in Punt Return average

So to sum it up...

Offensive line was mostly good in pass blocking, but 46 sacks didn't stop us from making the playoffs in 2012
Run game was terrible
Defense was mostly good, but the we still made the playoffs in 2014 with a 22nd ranked defense and a hobbled AJ Green
Special Teams was overall average

I'd say offensive line is top 10 . Defense top 10. Special teams top 15. Running below average. Mostly confirms what I said is true. 

(12-17-2018, 04:24 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: I said Dalton has had top 10 talent surrounding him for most of his career, not that he himself is top 10. Dalton is below average.

Minus the consistently bad offensive line.

23rd Run Offense last year

Cody Core?

Auden Tate?

Josh Malone?

Are we even sure these guys start on other teams!? 

(12-17-2018, 04:20 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: AJ Green isn't the best receiver in the league. 

An actual argument would be Top 5. You won't find anyone that watches NFL games, played Football or otherwise, who thinks he is the best receiver in the NFL. That isn't a negative towards AJ Green, but more or less a view of the talent around the NFL.


Also, sitting on the bench, coming out to play, doesn't make you a rookie. I'm sorry. The argument could very well be made that there is a reason Driskel is on the bench. Jeff has had the opportunity to play. I think he has shown he is a serviceable back up, but nothing more. 

I said tied for top spot with a few others . If 5 players are tied for top spot then you can say top 5. 

(12-17-2018, 04:26 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Minus the consistently bad offensive line.

23rd Run Offense last year

Cody Core?

Auden Tate?

Josh Malone?

Are we even sure these guys start on other teams!? 

Bad offensive line 2 years out of 8, which is why is said MOST, NOT ALL,  of his career.

Top 10 talent surrounding him for most of his career, not the past couple years

(12-17-2018, 04:13 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Whats silly is you thinking Green isn't one of the best, if not the best wr, in the past 8 years. Whats silly is you counting sitting on the bench the same as playing in actual games. 

(12-17-2018, 04:27 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: I said tied for top spot with a few others . If 5 players are tied for top spot then you can say top 5. 

I was responding to this post.

(12-17-2018, 04:24 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: I said Dalton has had top 10 talent surrounding him for most of his career, not that he himself is top 10. Dalton is below average.

So Andy is perfect and the talent around him isn't great is your answer?

What part of Andys game keeps him out of the top 5 QB conversation?

(12-17-2018, 04:29 PM)Synric Wrote: So Andy is perfect and the talent around him isn't great is your answer?

What part of Andys game keeps him out of the top 5 QB conversation?

I guess my point, to add to this one, and the OP

Is what has AJM or Driskel shown that is so much better than Dalton?

Unless we draft a stud at QB.

Dalton, for the money, is the solution. I believe he needs a better coach to work around. It certainly helped Palmer. 

(12-17-2018, 04:24 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: You also forgot.


Julio
DaVante Adams
DeAndre Hopkins


Fair to say all three names could make an argument for being better or as good as AJ Green. It is a receiver league. I think almost every team has a comparable talent. 

No chance every team has comparable talent to Green who will be a first ballot hof. 

(12-17-2018, 04:13 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: Whats silly is you thinking Green isn't one of the best, if not the best wr, in the past 8 years. Whats silly is you counting sitting on the bench the same as playing in actual games. 

Ofc he’s one of the best, but I don’t think he’s ever been #1. Not with Julio and Brown around. I think he was firmly 3-5 range for a few years there. Probably more 5-7 these days.

(12-17-2018, 04:29 PM)Synric Wrote: So Andy is perfect and the talent around him isn't great is your answer?

What part of Andys game keeps him out of the top 5 QB conversation?

That's is the opposite of what I said.  Did you even look. 

(12-17-2018, 04:26 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: I'd say offensive line is top 10 . Defense top 10. Special teams top 15. Running below average. Mostly confirms what I said is true. 

Um, no. You said:

Quote:We made the playoffs those seasons with a very solid offensive line, running game, special teams, and our defense consistently in the top 10. 

Implying we made the playoffs due to o-line, run game, special teams and defense.

The run game was terrible, so we were making the playoffs in spite of it.
The special teams was the definition of average.

So that right there throws out literally half of what you listed. The run game and ST were not helping us make the playoffs. Then the other 2 things you listed weren't consistently good for that whole stretch. Pass blocking was flat out bad in 2012, yet we still made the playoffs. You also said defense was "consistently top 10" when it wasn't top 10 in 40% of those years. 

(12-17-2018, 04:31 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: No chance every team has comparable talent to Green who will be a first ballot hof. 

It is a passing league. Talent gets you so far, but when you have players like Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Tyreek Hill, Juju Smith Schuster, Adam Theilen, Mike Evans, Michael Thomas, etc, throwing up as good, if not better numbers, a shroud is definitely put over AJ Green's accomplishments. This isn't to dismiss his greatness, but remind those that the league is FULL of talented players. 

I have no doubt that AJ Green will have a play at HoF. But statistically, game changing factors, every team has a threat that needs to be considered. Just as much, if not more so than AJ Green.

(12-17-2018, 04:33 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: That's is the opposite of what I said.  Did you even look. 

You didn't answer the question.

Saying he has to have top talent doesn't explain what part of Andy Dalton game keeps him from being a top 5 QB. Every Quarterback is better with more talent around them.

What part of Andy Dalton game keeps him out of that top 5 QB conversation?

(12-17-2018, 04:34 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Um, no. You said:



Implying we made the playoffs due to o-line, run game, special teams and defense.

The run game was terrible, so we were making the playoffs in spite of it.
The special teams was the definition of average.

So that right there throws out literally half of what you listed. Then the other 2 things you listed weren't consistently good for that whole stretch. Pass blocking was flat out bad in 2012, yet we still made the playoffs. You also said defense was "consistently top 10" when it wasn't top 10 in 40% of those years. 

He has a lot of straw man arguments. A lot of reaching.

I lost interest when he said Driskel was a rookie, despite being in the league for three years. 

(12-17-2018, 04:31 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: No chance every team has comparable talent to Green who will be a first ballot hof. 

Definitely not 1st ballot.

He still has a little ways to go to pass Chad’s numbers. And Chad is obviously not in the HoF.

He’ll need some playoff success to help his case too.

(12-17-2018, 04:24 PM)wolverine515151 Wrote: I said Dalton has had top 10 talent surrounding him for most of his career, not that he himself is top 10. Dalton is below average.

Dalton has had AJ green and WHO? that was playing at a high level for multiple years>?

(12-17-2018, 04:23 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: Honestly, I think it is hard to find a glaring issue with Dalton. Inconsistent, maybe? Then again, fair to say the team as a whole suffers from this issue.

Again, like AJ Green...I think there is just better talent. People need to remember Dalton was drafted the same year as AJ Green, a round behind him. He was picked to be surrounded with talent. He has never been Cam Newton. Andrew Luck. Etc. 

It's inconsistent footwork. 

Andy has one of the fastest releases in the NFL, accurate, great ball placement, and one of the better pre snap QBs.

But...he will rush his footwork in the pocket especially if he's getting pressured consistently.

(12-17-2018, 04:35 PM)The Caped Crusader Wrote: It is a passing league. Talent gets you so far, but when you have players like Antonio Brown, Julio Jones, Tyreek Hill, Juju Smith Schuster, Adam Theilen, Mike Evans, Michael Thomas, etc, throwing up as good, if not better numbers, a shroud is definitely put over AJ Green's accomplishments. This isn't to dismiss his greatness, but remind those that the league is FULL of talented players. 

I have no doubt that AJ Green will have a play at HoF. But statistically, game changing factors, every team has a threat that needs to be considered. Just as much, if not more so than AJ Green.

AJ Green has a long ways to go before his stats are HOF worthy.

Calling him "first ballot" is homerism at best.

14,000 yards seems to be the current threshold, and there are guys with 15,000 yards who have waited many years. AJ Green is currently at 8,904 yards and will turn 31 years old before next year. Not only is he a long shot for 14k yards, it's no lock that he breaks Chad's franchise record of 10,783 yards. Especially if he keeps getting hurt.