(12-25-2018, 11:40 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Bc he's playing in a horrible system. He's running 20+ times a game. His game is a deep ball thrower. Urban Meyer's is 5 yard drag catch and runs. Their system is completely opposite of what they should be.

He has around 70 rushing attempts for the year. It's around 4 a game.

(12-26-2018, 09:30 AM)kevin Wrote: I think some on here are Dalton Fans, Driskel Fans or just don't like Ohio State.  Haskins will be a star in the NFL.  Not just start, he will have a Hall Of Fame type career.  If not for Bengals, for another team.  I would almost bet for another team considering Bengals always miss out on the great players in drafts.

No. People are just giving their opinion. Haskins looks to be a solid pocket passer so far. As you said he has NFL size, a solid arm, and accurate with good touch at all 3 levels....but he still has issues recognizing the blitz, handling pressure, and doesn't have the speed or athleticism to escape often.

To me so far he looks like he will be a solid NFL QB but is missing that the wheels for me to call a future NFL star.

(12-25-2018, 11:40 PM)Jpoore Wrote: Bc he's playing in a horrible system. He's running 20+ times a game. His game is a deep ball thrower. Urban Meyer's is 5 yard drag catch and runs. Their system is completely opposite of what they should be.

Haskins only had 10+ carries twice this year.  The screens and drags are being used to supplement the run game because Haskins sucks as a runner and they don't have a stud RB.  I'll review some more games, but Haskins has never seemed to have a good deep ball.

(12-26-2018, 09:30 AM)kevin Wrote: I think some on here are Dalton Fans, Driskel Fans or just don't like Ohio State.  Haskins will be a star in the NFL.  Not just start, he will have a Hall Of Fame type career.  If not for Bengals, for another team.  I would almost bet for another team considering Bengals always miss out on the great players in drafts. Again, Haskins can't be compared to any other Ohio State QB.  He has NFL size and arm and is hard to tackle like Big Ben and can break out of tackles and still make plays like Big Ben.  He broke college passing records of Brees, Brady, Manning.  Michigan was #2 in USA with the #1 defense and Haskins beat the heck out of them.  I suggest everybody watch the Rose Bowl New Years Day. You will see one of the future superstars of the NFL in Haskins. Don't look for typical Ohio State run option QB.  Haskins is a pocket QB, but he can run a little if the blocking breaks down. He is a passer more than a runner.  Ohio State had to adjust to him, because he is NOT the typical Buckeyes run pass option type. He is a pure pocket QB, very rare for Ohio State.

Why is it whenever someone has a negative take on an Ohio State player, they are either accussed of having an agenda or "you must not watch OSU?"

I've been an OSU fan since I was a kid.  I watch plenty of Ohio State football.  I just don't watch it after putting my beer goggles on over my Scarlet and Grey homer glasses.  Reality is, 9 out of 10 OSU players are insanely overrated as NFL prospects.  

Going back to the old boards, I was one of the few that liked James Laurainatis over Maualuga.  I thought Zeke was a Top 10 pick.  I loved Hooker as a prospect.  There were a few OSU guys I really liked that busted, like Devin Smith.  There were a couple I didn't like that turned out really good, like Michael Thomas and Kirk Coleman.  I don't just crap on OSU guys out of hand.  But I've been the bad guy on countless overrated OSU players through the years like Vernon Gholston, Bryan Robiskie, and Pat Elflein.  

In your essays, you make numerous claims that simply are not factually true.  You talk about great NFL QB's and how it was easy to see in college, but Montana was a 2nd round pick.  Brees was a 2nd round pick that didn't become a superstar until he landed with his 2nd team.  Big Ben was the 3rd QB off the board in his class.  If it was easy to see, they'd be #1 overall.  

Similarly, you keep bringing up Tom Brady's college records, but Brady was a middling college QB that got benched multiple times.  There's been hundreds of NFL bust QB's that had better college careers than Brady.

You keep vastly overstating Haskins' size and running ability.  Kid averaged 1.7 ypc this year.  That's pathetic.  You keep likening him to guys like Big Ben, but he's nowhere near that size.  He's listed at 6'3", 218, and everyone gets 1" in college.  Andy Dalton was 6'2", 220 at the combine.  He has average NFL QB size.  He's not a monster like you keep claiming.

(12-26-2018, 11:17 AM)Whatever Wrote: Haskins only had 10+ carries twice this year.  The screens and drags are being used to supplement the run game because Haskins sucks as a runner and they don't have a stud RB.  I'll review some more games, but Haskins has never seemed to have a good deep ball.

I'm talking zone read type plays. His deep ball is his calling card. His touch and accuracy, while playing behind a porous rt  possibly the worst in cfb is something of itself. Also scoring 80(which is what they would have scored) on the #1 defense is amazing. He always showed up in big games. He just was in a horrible system..

(12-26-2018, 09:15 PM)Jpoore Wrote: I'm talking zone read type plays. His deep ball is his calling card. His touch and accuracy, while playing behind a porous rt  possibly the worst in cfb is something of itself. Also scoring 80(which is what they would have scored) on the #1 defense is amazing. He always showed up in big games. He just was in a horrible system..

I'll rewatch the full Michigan game when I have some time, but even looking at the highlights, you see just how much the system and the talent around him is helping him.  He gets a 25 yard TD pass on a 5 yard crossing route to a wide open receiver for his first TD.  His second TD, his receiver bails him out on a terribly thrown fly route where his receiver has to work back to the numbers from the sideline.  Pro CB's don't allow WR's to just run around them on the sideline and work back inside.  The wall them off against the sideline and make a play on the ball themselves.  On his 3rd TD, Dixon doesn't have a defender within 10 yards and is slowing down and still has to make an adjustment on a ball thrown behind him.  4th TD is a 2 yard throw to a wide open Hill off a rub.  5th TD is to a wide open Campbell on a flag route who has to adjust to a ball thrown high and slightly behind.

Just looking at his TD throws, his best was was his first TD on the shallow cross/RAC play.  He hits his receiver in stride and they got enough separation from the play design and their athletic ability to score.  2nd best was #4, where he throws it a tad low, but catchable and the receiver basically just has to walk across the goal line after making the catch.  His 2nd TD throw was terrible and he was completely bailed out by his receiver.  #3 and #5 are bad throws that are TD's because his receivers are wide open.  Those aren't completions against even decent coverage.  I'm going to rewatch more games, but his receivers seem to have to turn completely around and wait on the ball a lot on his TD passes into the end zone.  Those aren't NFL caliber throws.  He's not displaying the ability to fit it into the tight windows he's going to be faced with in the pros.

What OSU did to Michigan was impressive, but remember that they had a couple of picks that set them up deep in Michigan's end and a punt block for TD, plus a 78 yard TD off a jet sweep.  It wasn't all, or even mostly Haskins.

OSU is primarily just showing zone read looks to help the RB a little with Haskins.  He's gotta keep it once in awhile to keep the D honest, but those are primarily intended to be hand offs.  The system combined with the talent around him is really inflating his passing numbers.  He gets a ton of short high percentage throws to guys that are a threat to go the distance any time they get the ball in space and he gets a ridiculous number of wide open receivers that he just has to drop it in the same area code.

(12-27-2018, 12:31 AM)Whatever Wrote: OSU is primarily just showing zone read looks to help the RB a little with Haskins.  He's gotta keep it once in awhile to keep the D honest, but those are primarily intended to be hand offs.  The system combined with the talent around him is really inflating his passing numbers.  He gets a ton of short high percentage throws to guys that are a threat to go the distance any time they get the ball in space and he gets a ridiculous number of wide open receivers that he just has to drop it in the same area code.

No one is buying the "zone read" looks. He is showing a naked bootleg basically because he is so little of a running threat. The system argument is slightly flawed because he isn't a half field spread QB. The fact it is a full field spread in itself already calms a lot of the "system" argument because he is making reads across the entire field on many throws. Saying he is throwing to wide open guys means he finds wide open guys, when you watch him in the pocket he is bouncing and scanning the field, don't undersell the skill required to do this. Those short high percentage throws are using West Coast concepts that are ran in the NFL (many people think he could be a fit for Gruden). He makes a lot of intermediate NFL level throws with touch which is something many rookies struggle with. Thing for me is watching his first 4 games compared to his last four games. What should get NFL teams excited is his decision making improvements as well as his touch on short routes getting better. 

Will he come out with a Andrew Luck type grade? No. My guess is he will be graded similar to a guy like Joe Flacco or Mitchell Trubisky. I think a less athletic Trubisky is a reall good comparison for him to be honest. I think he will struggle in year 1 and show flashes, but in year 2 with the right coordinator he will see big improvements. 

(12-27-2018, 11:43 AM)Au165 Wrote: No one is buying the "zone read" looks. He is showing a naked bootleg basically because he is so little of a running threat. The system argument is slightly flawed because he isn't a half field spread QB. The fact it is a full field spread in itself already calms a lot of the "system" argument because he is making reads across the entire field on many throws. Saying he is throwing to wide open guys means he finds wide open guys, when you watch him in the pocket he is bouncing and scanning the field, don't undersell the skill required to do this. Those short high percentage throws are using West Coast concepts that are ran in the NFL (many people think he could be a fit for Gruden). He makes a lot of intermediate NFL level throws with touch which is something many rookies struggle with. Thing for me is watching his first 4 games compared to his last four games. What should get NFL teams excited is his decision making improvements as well as his touch on short routes getting better. 

Will he come out with a Andrew Luck type grade? No. My guess is he will be graded similar to a guy like Joe Flacco or Mitchell Trubisky. I think a less athletic Trubisky is a reall good comparison for him to be honest. I think he will struggle in year 1 and show flashes, but in year 2 with the right coordinator he will see big improvements. 

A lot of the things OSU does involves pro concepts, but these are things that are tools at the pro level that are crutches at OSU.  For example, the first drive of the second half against Purdue, they just marched down the field with screen passes.  The first drive against Michigan was just crossing patterns over and over again.  When you have the athletes OSU does, you can do that.  You can mix that in in the NFL, but you can't just rely on it play after play.

He does a good job with his reads and finding the open guy, but that's made a lot easier by having guys that are open by 2+ yards.  However, that in itself is a concern.  What he considers open at OSU is light years away from open in the NFL.  You see a lot of QB's that are good at reading defenses in college turn into check down machines in the NFL, or worse, sit there and eat sacks because they don't trust their reads and don't trust their arm to squeeze one in.  You'd like to see a guy that's a little more of a gunslinger and can consistently make throws into tight windows.  

(12-27-2018, 01:38 PM)Whatever Wrote: A lot of the things OSU does involves pro concepts, but these are things that are tools at the pro level that are crutches at OSU.  For example, the first drive of the second half against Purdue, they just marched down the field with screen passes.  The first drive against Michigan was just crossing patterns over and over again.  When you have the athletes OSU does, you can do that.  You can mix that in in the NFL, but you can't just rely on it play after play.

He does a good job with his reads and finding the open guy, but that's made a lot easier by having guys that are open by 2+ yards.  However, that in itself is a concern.  What he considers open at OSU is light years away from open in the NFL.  You see a lot of QB's that are good at reading defenses in college turn into check down machines in the NFL, or worse, sit there and eat sacks because they don't trust their reads and don't trust their arm to squeeze one in.  You'd like to see a guy that's a little more of a gunslinger and can consistently make throws into tight windows.  

You just described the Rams offense with a stretch run and a deep crosser. The rams live on mesh concepts many off the stretch play action from a tight 11 and 12 personnel. They are actually proving that simplifying the offense and being really good at a couple concepts can make an offense really good.

I'll disagree, you see a lot of guys coming out of college that were only asked to read half a field Haskins was not. I'll take a guy who eats sacks early over turning the ball over, especially early on in their development. No doubt in my mind he'd be comfortable playing in a west coast offense day 1 as the carry over would be simple. A lot of Air Raid concepts are making their way into the NFL and you saw OSU incorporate some of that stuff in. Their scheme is actually a power run scheme with spread and air raid concepts. They attack laterally then use that as the misdirection for some of the combination shot plays they run. You can see that with a lot of the wheel routes they like to run with deep posts inside to beat cover 3. 

Go watch the Rams offense and what Goff did this year and tell me he isn't running a similar offense right now from a spread look. Rams prefer it from tight, but the sentiment stands he can be Jared Goff with the right scheme and coordinator.

If you guys had to rank Haskins with the QBs who were drafted last year where would you put him?

(12-27-2018, 01:44 PM)Au165 Wrote: You just described the Rams offense with a stretch run and a deep crosser. The rams live on mesh concepts many off the stretch play action from a tight 11 and 12 personnel. They are actually proving that simplifying the offense and being really good at a couple concepts can make an offense really good.

I'll disagree, you see a lot of guys coming out of college that were only asked to read half a field Haskins was not. I'll take a guy who eats sacks early over turning the ball over, especially early on in their development. No doubt in my mind he'd be comfortable playing in a west coast offense day 1 as the carry over would be simple. A lot of Air Raid concepts are making their way into the NFL and you saw OSU incorporate some of that stuff in. Their scheme is actually a power run scheme with spread and air raid concepts. They attack laterally then use that as the misdirection for some of the combination shot plays they run. You can see that with a lot of the wheel routes they like to run with deep posts inside to beat cover 3. 

Go watch the Rams offense and what Goff did this year and tell me he isn't running a similar offense right now from a spread look. Rams prefer it from tight, but the sentiment stands he can be Jared Goff with the right scheme and coordinator.

Goff has struggled since the Rams bye week.  Teams are showing signs of figuring that offense out. I don't see that as a long term recipe for success.  Anything new takes defenses time to adapt, then it just becomes another tool in the tool box.  We kind of saw it here when Lazor took over.  We caught teams by surprise for awhile because they didn't know what to expect, then they figured it out and see those screens coming a mile away.  Same thing with Kitchens in Cleveland.

Haskins already has bad pocket presence.  Eating sacks will ruin him and he'll throw picks anyways because his mechanics will go.  If he wasn't already scared of the rush, I would be in more agreement.

(12-27-2018, 05:28 PM)Whatever Wrote: Goff has struggled since the Rams bye week.  Teams are showing signs of figuring that offense out. I don't see that as a long term recipe for success.  Anything new takes defenses time to adapt, then it just becomes another tool in the tool box.  We kind of saw it here when Lazor took over.  We caught teams by surprise for awhile because they didn't know what to expect, then they figured it out and see those screens coming a mile away.  Same thing with Kitchens in Cleveland.

Haskins already has bad pocket presence.  Eating sacks will ruin him and he'll throw picks anyways because his mechanics will go.  If he wasn't already scared of the rush, I would be in more agreement.

Honestly his struggles are kind of related to the injury to Kupp, people kind of discounted him as just a slot WR but undersell what he meant to the offense. His ability to take advantage of one on one match ups exposed a lot of teams inability to cover the middle of the field.

Bad pocket presence again is an overstatement relative to college QBs in general. He climbs a little prematurely at time but I wouldn’t call it poor. He played behind a bad o line and felt the effects of foot steps. He has stood in and taken plenty of hits while making accurate throws. This really seems like being overly critical and not really comparing to relatively to where other QBs come out at.

Like I said he will come out with a high 80’s grade similar to a Trubisky or Flacco. He will need a scheme fit, someone who wants to be ultra vertical won’t be a good fit but any west coast offense who have incorporated a lot of spread and air raid concepts would work well. He’d be a good fit in Washington but I doubt he goes that late.

(12-28-2018, 12:46 AM)Au165 Wrote: Honestly his struggles are kind of related to the injury to Kupp, people kind of discounted him as just a slot WR but undersell what he meant to the offense. His ability to take advantage of one on one match ups exposed a lot of teams inability to cover the middle of the field.

Bad pocket presence again is an overstatement relative to college QBs in general. He climbs a little prematurely at time but I wouldn’t call it poor. He played behind a bad o line and felt the effects of foot steps. He has stood in and taken plenty of hits while making accurate throws. This really seems like being overly critical and not really comparing to relatively to where other QBs come out at.

Like I said he will come out with a high 80’s grade similar to a Trubisky or Flacco. He will need a scheme fit, someone who wants to be ultra vertical won’t be a good fit but any west coast offense who have incorporated a lot of spread and air raid concepts would work well. He’d be a good fit in Washington but I doubt he goes that late.

Kupp missed time earlier in the year and it didn't really affect Goff or the Rams offense that much.  His absence obviously hurts, but I can't really say that's the reason for the issues.

When we're talking about a QB as a Top 10, Top 5 pick, they are going to get nit picked.  There's such importance placed on the position and the cost is so high for anybody to move up or pass up on one of these guys that you have to be sure.  You very rarely see quality starters slide out of the 1st anymore.  I can't think of any off the top of my head since Russell Wilson.  From a franchise PoV, you're basically either a Top 16 prospect or you may as well be a 4th or 5th rounder, because if you make it to the 2nd, you're a career backup.

Overall, I would put him a bit behind Trubisky mainly because he's less mobile.  As a prospect for the Bengals, I don't like him at all.  He's not enough of a sure thing and doesn't do enough to elevate the guys around him to warrant giving up what we would have to to move up and get him.  He's not a Peyton type QB that elevates the talent around him.  He's a guy that can be a solid starter if you put a good OL in front of him and get him an OC that he fits the system for, at best.  

(12-28-2018, 01:41 AM)Whatever Wrote: Kupp missed time earlier in the year and it didn't really affect Goff or the Rams offense that much.  His absence obviously hurts, but I can't really say that's the reason for the issues.

When we're talking about a QB as a Top 10, Top 5 pick, they are going to get nit picked.  There's such importance placed on the position and the cost is so high for anybody to move up or pass up on one of these guys that you have to be sure.  You very rarely see quality starters slide out of the 1st anymore.  I can't think of any off the top of my head since Russell Wilson.  From a franchise PoV, you're basically either a Top 16 prospect or you may as well be a 4th or 5th rounder, because if you make it to the 2nd, you're a career backup.

Overall, I would put him a bit behind Trubisky mainly because he's less mobile.  As a prospect for the Bengals, I don't like him at all.  He's not enough of a sure thing and doesn't do enough to elevate the guys around him to warrant giving up what we would have to to move up and get him.  He's not a Peyton type QB that elevates the talent around him.  He's a guy that can be a solid starter if you put a good OL in front of him and get him an OC that he fits the system for, at best.  

Kupp played in 8 games and had 6 TD's thats pretty good production from your slot WR. He was on pace for a 12 TD 1100 yard season, I'd say missing that from your #3 option was a big loss. 

Haskins will be a top 16 pick which is why this whole thing is funny, you talking about QB's past the 1st round etc. He will be nitpicked of course but my point is you really aren't comparing him to what guys were coming out. You seem to have a weird expectation of them being pro ready when they come in. That has happened maybe once in the last 10 years and that was Luck. Even as great as Mahomes has been this year he had to sit behind Smith for a year and has a tailor made system around him that, as you knocked the Rams and Goff for, has seemed to be figured out a bit as of late.

Lol Peyton type, you are correct he is not a generational QB who is possibly the greatest football mind in history. I'm going to simply leave it at, I disagree wholeheartedly with much of the stuff you have typed. I guess we will see, my hunch though is the NFL teams and scouts agree with me more than you.

(12-28-2018, 09:12 AM)Au165 Wrote: Kupp played in 8 games and had 6 TD's thats pretty good production from your slot WR. He was on pace for a 12 TD 1100 yard season, I'd say missing that from your #3 option was a big loss. 

Haskins will be a top 16 pick which is why this whole thing is funny, you talking about QB's past the 1st round etc. He will be nitpicked of course but my point is you really aren't comparing him to what guys were coming out. You seem to have a weird expectation of them being pro ready when they come in. That has happened maybe once in the last 10 years and that was Luck. Even as great as Mahomes has been this year he had to sit behind Smith for a year and has a tailor made system around him that, as you knocked the Rams and Goff for, has seemed to be figured out a bit as of late.

Lol Peyton type, you are correct he is not a generational QB who is possibly the greatest football mind in history. I'm going to simply leave it at, I disagree wholeheartedly with much of the stuff you have typed. I guess we will see, my hunch though is the NFL teams and scouts agree with me more than you.

I'm quite sure of it.

(12-28-2018, 09:12 AM)Au165 Wrote: Kupp played in 8 games and had 6 TD's thats pretty good production from your slot WR. He was on pace for a 12 TD 1100 yard season, I'd say missing that from your #3 option was a big loss. 

Haskins will be a top 16 pick which is why this whole thing is funny, you talking about QB's past the 1st round etc. He will be nitpicked of course but my point is you really aren't comparing him to what guys were coming out. You seem to have a weird expectation of them being pro ready when they come in. That has happened maybe once in the last 10 years and that was Luck. Even as great as Mahomes has been this year he had to sit behind Smith for a year and has a tailor made system around him that, as you knocked the Rams and Goff for, has seemed to be figured out a bit as of late.

Lol Peyton type, you are correct he is not a generational QB who is possibly the greatest football mind in history. I'm going to simply leave it at, I disagree wholeheartedly with much of the stuff you have typed. I guess we will see, my hunch though is the NFL teams and scouts agree with me more than you.

I'm quite certain he will be a Top 16 pick.  Grades from year to year are relative, particularly with QB's.  Scouting services don't look smart when a guy they have rated 30th or so goes Top 10, so their grade will always be curved based on where they think they will be drafted.  I'm simply unconvinced that he's going to be a great NFL QB.

(12-28-2018, 01:48 PM)Whatever Wrote: I'm quite certain he will be a Top 16 pick.  Grades from year to year are relative, particularly with QB's.  Scouting services don't look smart when a guy they have rated 30th or so goes Top 10, so their grade will always be curved based on where they think they will be drafted.  I'm simply unconvinced that he's going to be a great NFL QB.

Not really, actual grades (not rankings) hold up year over year. McShay for instance (not a fan but his year over years are easy to find) gave EJ Manuel a grade of 76 coming out, however it was well known heading into the draft he'd be a first round pick. He gave Lamar Jackson an 84 grade also knowing there was a chance he'd be a 1st rounder. On the flip side he gave Luck a 99 because coming out he was the best prospect he ever saw. As I keep saying, I think most scouts will slot him in around a 90 rating meaning he is 1st round worthy based on his skill right now with a chance to be an above average to really good NFL QB. 

Off topic question...

Jarret Stidham is a Junior but is going to be at the senior bowl and the announcers said yesterday that Daniel Jones is eligible for the senior bowl as a junior also. Is this because of something like they already graduated or something else?

(12-28-2018, 04:07 PM)Synric Wrote: Off topic question...

Jarret Stidham is a Junior but is going to be at the senior bowl and the announcers said yesterday that Daniel Jones is eligible for the senior bowl as a junior also. Is this because of something like they already graduated or something else?

Yes, because he graduated he can play in the senior bowl. I like him a lot actually as a developmental QB. Assuming we aren't in the market to replace Dalton this year I'd be okay with him in a mid round. I think as good as his year was last year you maybe consider this year a little bit of a blip and bet that you can recapture the guy last year who looked like a first RD QB for sure. 

(12-28-2018, 04:47 PM)Au165 Wrote: Yes, because he graduated he can play in the senior bowl. I like him a lot actually as a developmental QB. Assuming we aren't in the market to replace Dalton this year I'd be okay with him in a mid round. I think as good as his year was last year you maybe consider this year a little bit of a blip and bet that you can recapture the guy last year who looked like a first RD QB for sure. 

I'm not sure which one you're talking about but it fits both Stidham and Jones.

...And I do think the Bengals will target a QB in the 3-5th rounds. In fact I believe Mason Rudolph would have been in stripes in the Steelers didn't trade up one pick ahead of the Bengals.

(12-28-2018, 02:03 PM)Au165 Wrote: Not really, actual grades (not rankings) hold up year over year. McShay for instance (not a fan but his year over years are easy to find) gave EJ Manuel a grade of 76 coming out, however it was well known heading into the draft he'd be a first round pick. He gave Lamar Jackson an 84 grade also knowing there was a chance he'd be a 1st rounder. On the flip side he gave Luck a 99 because coming out he was the best prospect he ever saw. As I keep saying, I think most scouts will slot him in around a 90 rating meaning he is 1st round worthy based on his skill right now with a chance to be an above average to really good NFL QB. 

In fairness, even casual draftniks knew EJ wasn't a good prospect and would get massively over drafted by a desperate team. 

McShay definitely plays the curve game, though.  He's had at least 1 QB in his Top 10 9 of the last 11 years, and at least one QB with an 89+ rating 10 of the last 11.

100% with you on hating McShay, though.  If Jameis Winston was a 97 rating and noodle armed Mark Sanchez was a 96, he should have Haskins in the 115-120 range.