(12-31-2018, 01:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Keep in mind 6-10 with major and I mean major injury issues with franchise QB, one of best WR's in the NFL, TE group decimated, LB group decimated, WR group decimated.

My point is the new guy is likely to have a much better injury situation (since our was one of worst in decades of any team) so playoffs or bust. If he makes the playoffs, he meets my expectations. Anything less (unless he suffer injuries like 2018), then failed hire.

So even with all the problems on this team, you wont give him one season to get his feet under him before declaring him a failure?

(12-31-2018, 01:59 PM)Beaker Wrote: So even with all the problems on this team, you wont give him one season to get his feet under him before declaring him a failure?

Why would we? Would we have given 1 more year to get his feet under him knowing a bunch of very good players should be healthy in 2019?

So, nope, my patience is gone, call it my old age and desire to see a championship before I die or not of sound mind.

Just because we changed the HC will not lower my expectations. It will raise them.

(12-31-2018, 01:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Keep in mind 6-10 with major and I mean major injury issues with franchise QB, one of best WR's in the NFL, TE group decimated, LB group decimated, WR group decimated.

My point is the new guy is likely to have a much better injury situation (since our was one of worst in decades of any team) so playoffs or bust. If he makes the playoffs, he meets my expectations. Anything less (unless he suffer injuries like 2018), then failed hire.

I'd buy the injury excuse more if we didn't go 6-9-1 and 7-9 in the 2 years previous.

And for me it's a bit soon to say playoffs or "failed hire". There will be a lot of context provided over the next few months. Are we keeping Dalton? Starting fresh with new players? If we go 9-7 with a promising new QB - and just barely miss the playoffs - you would consider that a failed season despite the progress? I guess we'd differ there.

Also, I think it's funny to give the new guy 1 season to prove himself when Marvin missed the playoffs 9 times. I doubt you considered that a failed hire. I get that expectations were lower when Marv was hired, but we're pretty far removed from the team that made the playoffs 5 years in a row. I think many people (myself included sometimes) still see us as that playoff team. We're not.

(12-31-2018, 02:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would we? Would we have given 1 more year to get his feet under him knowing a bunch of very good players should be healthy in 2019?

So, nope, my patience is gone, call it my old age and desire to see a championship before I die or not of sound mind.

I will give him a fair chance....and the you being of sound mind thing has been up for debate around here for quite some time already. 

(12-31-2018, 02:05 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Why would we? Would we have given 1 more year to get his feet under him knowing a bunch of very good players should be healthy in 2019?

So, nope, my patience is gone, call it my old age and desire to see a championship before I die or not of sound mind.

Just because we changed the HC will not lower my expectations. It will raise them.

I think that reality is pending the Bengals front office drastically shifting their habits, it's going to take 2-3 years to rebuild this team.

(12-31-2018, 01:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Keep in mind 6-10 with major and I mean major injury issues with franchise QB, one of best WR's in the NFL, TE group decimated, LB group decimated, WR group decimated.

My point is the new guy is likely to have a much better injury situation (since our was one of worst in decades of any team) so playoffs or bust. If he makes the playoffs, he meets my expectations. Anything less (unless he suffer injuries like 2018), then failed hire.

This roster needs a lot of work. The O-line and LBing corps needs a complete overhaul. They need to figure out the TE situation as well. Just a lot of things that need to be addressed and decisions that need to be made.

Whoever the new head coach is, his success in year 1 is very much going to depend on what they get accomplished this offseason. It's not like he'll be walking into a perfect situation where there's not some serious work that needs to done.

(12-31-2018, 02:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd buy the injury excuse more if we didn't go 6-9-1 and 7-9 in the 2 years previous.

And for me it's a bit soon to say playoffs or "failed hire". There will be a lot of context provided over the next few months. Are we keeping Dalton? Starting fresh with new players? If we go 9-7 with a promising new QB - and just barely miss the playoffs - you would consider that a failed season despite the progress? I guess we'd differ there.

Also, I think it's funny to give the new guy 1 season to prove himself when Marvin missed the playoffs 9 times. I doubt you considered that a failed hire. I get that expectations were lower when Marv was hired, but we're pretty far removed from the team that made the playoffs 5 years in a row. I think many people (myself included sometimes) still see us as that playoff team. We're not.

I did not give ML anything, that was MB. I had the same expectations for ML in 2018 as I had in 2017 and 2016. I would argue so did you and other, if not, you would not have want him gone. In your minds, you felt ML had the talent to win.

Fast forward, unless they blow up the roster, that same healthy roster from 2018 will be inherited by the new HC. So, we will see if ML is the issue or if a lack of talent was the real issue.

(12-31-2018, 02:08 PM)Bengalholic Wrote:
This roster needs a lot of work. The O-line and LBing corps needs a complete overhaul. They need to figure out the TE situation as well. Just a lot of things that need to be addressed and decisions that need to be made.

Whoever the new head coach is, his success in year 1 is very much going to depend on what they get accomplished this offseason. 

The roster has needed work for years, that is not the head coach, that is the GM and FO.

I will lay money ML did not want to lose vets like Whittworth, Marvin Jones or others.

(12-31-2018, 02:06 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I'd buy the injury excuse more if we didn't go 6-9-1 and 7-9 in the 2 years previous.

And for me it's a bit soon to say playoffs or "failed hire". There will be a lot of context provided over the next few months. Are we keeping Dalton? Starting fresh with new players? If we go 9-7 with a promising new QB - and just barely miss the playoffs - you would consider that a failed season despite the progress? I guess we'd differ there.

Also, I think it's funny to give the new guy 1 season to prove himself when Marvin missed the playoffs 9 times. I doubt you considered that a failed hire. I get that expectations were lower when Marv was hired, but we're pretty far removed from the team that made the playoffs 5 years in a row. I think many people (myself included sometimes) still see us as that playoff team. We're not.

Exactly ! We're not just a player or two away, we're half a dozen or more starters away and we need much/better more depth.

(12-31-2018, 02:07 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I think that reality is pending the Bengals front office drastically shifting their habits, it's going to take 2-3 years to rebuild this team.

It may be reality, the reality may also be they lose 20% more of their ticket holders in 2019 too. Why would people pay big bucks to watch a losing team rebuild for 2 to 3 years?

Maybe I am the minority, but I am no more motivated to buy season tickets or attend games now at PBS than I was when I gave up my tickets.

(12-31-2018, 02:12 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly ! We're not just a player or two away, we're half a dozen or more starters away and we need much/better more depth.

People actually get mad at me for saying that. Some even argue how good guys like John Ross are.

People see a close loss in the NFL to the Chargers as being close to playoff ready. That's not reality.

The AFC North was really weak this year too. You have to figure the Browns and Ravens will get better. And the Steelers are never bad for long.

(12-31-2018, 01:58 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Keep in mind 6-10 with major and I mean major injury issues with franchise QB, one of best WR's in the NFL, TE group decimated, LB group decimated, WR group decimated.

My point is the new guy is likely to have a much better injury situation (since our was one of worst in decades of any team) so playoffs or bust. If he makes the playoffs, he meets my expectations. Anything less (unless he suffer injuries like 2018), then failed hire.

So the previous guy gets sixteen and the next guy gets one?  That doesn't sound reactionary at all.

(12-31-2018, 02:14 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: People actually get mad at me for saying that. Some even argue how good guys like John Ross are.

People see a close loss in the NFL to the Chargers as being close to playoff ready. That's not reality.

The AFC North was really weak this year too. You have to figure the Browns and Ravens will get better. And the Steelers are never bad for long.

The Steelers were 9-6-1

If that is bad, we are in the gutter bad.

(12-31-2018, 01:14 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Add in why do fans expect ML to win playoffs and Super Bowl, then guy with the same team gets no expectations or a pass?

Why?

I don't have an exact answer for you. Personally, if the new HC can pick his staff, not make boneheaded mistakes during the game and makes this team competitive in all games, I believe we have a punchers chance of reaching the post season. Yes we hope this happens in the 1st season.

(12-31-2018, 02:11 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: The roster has needed work for years, that is not the head coach, that is the GM and FO.

I will lay money ML did not want to lose vets like Whittworth, Marvin Jones or others.

The O-line needs revamped, the LBing corps is in shambles (Burfict may have to retire), all 3 TE's are FA's, they need better depth at WR and maybe on the D-line as well, etc. 

It's not just that the roster needs tweaked a bit, it needs some major re-tooling, IMO. 

(12-31-2018, 02:10 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I did not give ML anything, that was MB. I had the same expectations for ML in 2018 as I had in 2017 and 2016. I would argue so did you and other, if not, you would not have want him gone. In your minds, you felt ML had the talent to win.

Fast forward, unless they blow up the roster, that same healthy roster from 2018 will be inherited by the new HC. So, we will see if ML is the issue or if a lack of talent was the real issue.

My expectation is always progress. We never progressed to winning playoff games under Marv. We also had 3 straight losing seasons. That is not progress. For the next HC, I will expect progress. That could be playoffs. That could be 8-8 + reasons for (real) hope. After that, I'd expect more progress. Including playoff wins. 

Any time a team regresses or grows stagnant, then it's time to consider change. Coaches usually get at least 2 years, barring a disastrous first year.

(12-31-2018, 02:18 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: My expectation is always progress. We never progressed to winning playoff games under Marv. We also had 3 straight losing seasons. That is not progress. For the next HC, I will expect progress. That could be playoffs. That could be 8-8 + reasons for (real) hope. After that, I'd expect more progress. Including playoff wins. 

Any time a team regresses or grows stagnant, then it's time to consider change. Coaches usually get at least 2 years, barring a disastrous first year.

I understand the whole give the new guy a chance, I am not defending ML at all, he should have been fired a long time ago.

My point is ML does not dictate the roster, neither will the next guy. But if anyone expected ML to win with the 2018 roster, they should expect the same from the new guy. Many of the fans are on record stating our roster had too many holes in one breath, but then blaming ML for losing with a roster with too many holes.

I am just pointing out some hypocrisy of some. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. ML or any head coach is not Houdini. Many of you are pointing out ML was not set up for success the past few years, I am not speaking of you.

(12-31-2018, 02:18 PM)Bengalholic Wrote: The O-line needs revamped, the LBing corps is in shambles (Burfict may have to retire), all 3 TE's are FA's, they need better depth at WR and maybe on the D-line as well, etc. 

It's not just that the roster needs tweaked a bit, it needs some major re-tooling, IMO. 

The WR corps has good depth with Boyd, Green, Erickson and maybe Ross(?). I rather see this team focus on o-line, LB, More o-line and even more LB! Both areas were extreme liabilities! Don’t tell me Vigil is a good LB in today’s game. He might have been a decade ago but the guy has no speed


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(12-31-2018, 02:27 PM)Luvnit2 Wrote: I understand the whole give the new guy a chance, I am not defending ML at all, he should have been fired a long time ago.

My point is ML does not dictate the roster, neither will the next guy. But if anyone expected ML to win with the 2018 roster, they should expect the same from the new guy. Many of the fans are on record stating our roster had too many holes in one breath, but then blaming ML for losing with a roster with too many holes.

I am just pointing out some hypocrisy of some. You can't have it both ways in my opinion. ML or any head coach is not Houdini. Many of you are pointing out ML was not set up for success the past few years, I am not speaking of you.

ML wasn't I'm sure the 100% roster decision maker. But let's not act like he had no influence at all.

(12-31-2018, 02:33 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: ML wasn't I'm sure the 100% roster decision maker. But let's not act like he had no influence at all.

If so, use the standard on the new guy, he is part HC and part GM.