(01-05-2019, 12:03 PM)Fullrock Wrote: FA doesn't work out because the Bengals don't look to add impact players. If you want to see how quickly a rebuild can work just look at the Browns. From 0-16 to quite possibly the best team in the AFC North for the foreseeable future. They stockpiled draft picks and hit some home runs on them, but hell they even missed on some too. Then they added some important pieces via FA and here they are looking at competing for the AFC North for years to come. 

They parted ways with Marvin because of all the empty seats.  They are trying to put butts back in the seats, no chase the rest away, which is exactly what  rebuild would do.

And the Browns?  Yeah, it only took them a decade to rebuild.  It's silly to act like it happened in a year because it most certainly did not.

How many years would you have to hit on every draft pick to complete the process?

And finally, and most important of all, you are not taking into account Mike's way of doing things, and trading away all the best players and starting over is absolutely not in his wheel house.

(01-05-2019, 12:03 PM)Fullrock Wrote: FA doesn't work out because the Bengals don't look to add impact players. If you want to see how quickly a rebuild can work just look at the Browns. From 0-16 to quite possibly the best team in the AFC North for the foreseeable future. They stockpiled draft picks and hit some home runs on them, but hell they even missed on some too. Then they added some important pieces via FA and here they are looking at competing for the AFC North for years to come. 

Multiple #1OA picks are why they are where they are now. They weren’t good until they got Mayfield. And Garrett is a game changer.

I think trading is harder to do than people think. It's not like trading in the old Oldsmobile, you younger guys are probably asking what's that? Both would require a couple of high picks, but if you think at the age of 30, they are declining, why would they trade with you?

I think you have to treat it at this point like the old saying "you dont quit your job until you have a new one". The same thing Andy Reid did. Keep your QB until you feel comfortable that the guy behind him is better. You would can a good employee with hopes of finding a great one. You would find the great one then make the change.

(01-05-2019, 12:30 PM)WhodeyRay Wrote: I think you have to treat it at this point like the old saying "you dont quit your job until you have a new one". The same thing Andy Reid did. Keep your QB until you feel comfortable that the guy behind him is better.  You would can a good employee with hopes of finding a great one. You would find the great one then make the change.

Exactly.  Well said.

(01-05-2019, 12:14 PM)McC Wrote: They parted ways with Marvin because of all the empty seats.  They are trying to put butts back in the seats, no chase the rest away, which is exactly what  rebuild would do.

And the Browns?  Yeah, it only took them a decade to rebuild.  It's silly to act like it happened in a year because it most certainly did not.

How many years would you have to hit on every draft pick to complete the process?

And finally, and most important of all, you are not taking into account Mike's way of doing things, and trading away all the best players and starting over is absolutely not in his wheel house.

The Browns rebuild took more than a decade? I mean yeah they were bad for that long, but they began rebuilding their current roster in 2016 and 2017 with teams that went 1-31. You can't rebuild from much worse than that. They stockpiled a ton of picks and hit several (Mayfield, Garrett, Njoku Chubb, Ward, Peppers, Callaway, Avery, Ogunjobi, Ogbah, Schobert, Kindred are all starters from the last 3 drafts). Then they added these starters in free agency since 2017 (Zeitler, Tretter, Carrie, Fells, Hubbard, Hyde though they then traded him this year). They also traded for starters Landry and Randall.

So not counting Hyde, 19 of their 22 starters have been added to the roster since 2016, and the majority since 2017. If you do it right, you CAN rebuild in a few years.

That being said, I do agree with you that Mike Brown will not have the foresight to do it.

Dalton is a good qb that we can get at least a couple years out of at the current level. That's a relief to any coach coming in, as that's one thing he doesn't have to fix.

I think Dalton is one of the things that helps make us attractive to a decent coach. Trading him to start the process of going through 1-? More QBs looking for a competent starter might not be the best idea.

I'm not in favor of a full rebuild just yet. I want to see how this core responds to a new HC before doing anything substantial to the roster, besides the obvious adding o-line and linebackers.

However, if the team were to want to trade Dalton and Green as a packaged pair, I would call up Washington and get a couple 1's and some change. Dan Snyder and Bruce Allen want to win now and will be looking for a QB, Dalton would slide right back into the first offense he learned in the NFL.

(01-05-2019, 01:18 PM)Fullrock Wrote: The Browns rebuild took more than a decade? I mean yeah they were bad for that long, but they began rebuilding their current roster in 2016 and 2017 with teams that went 1-31. You can't rebuild from much worse than that. They stockpiled a ton of picks and hit several (Mayfield, Garrett, Njoku Chubb, Ward, Peppers, Callaway, Avery, Ogunjobi, Ogbah, Schobert, Kindred are all starters from the last 3 drafts). Then they added these starters in free agency since 2017 (Zeitler, Tretter, Carrie, Fells, Hubbard, Hyde though they then traded him this year). They also traded for starters Landry and Randall.

So not counting Hyde, 19 of their 22 starters have been added to the roster since 2016, and the majority since 2017. If you do it right, you CAN rebuild in a few years.

That being said, I do agree with you that Mike Brown will not have the foresight to do it.

I think you're underestimating how many failed rebuilds they had before this one seemed to work, the jury is still out on that team. They could easily fall off quickly they had 10 wins in 2007 ans were turning the corner, 4 wins in 2008 and the rest is history. It took them about 30 QBs to finally maybe hit on one.

I've said numerous times that I don't care if we move on from Dalton, but that's only if we find a clear upgrade. No sense in trading him just to trade him. He's a relative bargain and a solid player at the most important position. He could keep us relevant during the transition to a new coaching staff. He could also play Jon Kitna while a new QB sits and learns.

He'll also have a chance to do something Palmer didn't: play for a different HC while still a Bengal.

I feel the same about AJ Green. I never blamed these guys for the playoff/prime-time/Steelers problems. Heck, I don't know how many times I've thought to myself "Dalton and AJ are all that's keeping this team afloat" over the last few years. They even managed to have this disaster of a team sitting at 5-3 til the magic ran out.

Their time is running out, but I wouldn't mind (and might prefer) they get 1 run with the new HC.

(01-05-2019, 12:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I bet Oakland regrets trading Mack. Maybe they turn those picks into some good players, but the odds of one of them being as good as him are probably pretty low.

It definitely appears to have been the missing link to the bears and revitalized their Defense and now in the playoffs. Amazing what sometimes 1 player brings to the team. Maybe the same could be said about Cooper going to the Cowboys, and they also made the playoffs (yes! we beat them 21-13 this season ). Just a change of fresh air makes a difference. 16 yrs of the same air with Marvin.   While I think AJ and Dalton are 2-3 yrs away from being replaced, I think we build around them (defense and Oline) and then once the core is set, bring in their replacement.

(01-05-2019, 01:38 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: I've said numerous times that I don't care if we move on from Dalton, but that's only if we find a clear upgrade. No sense in trading him just to trade him. He's a relative bargain and a solid player at the most important position. He could keep us relevant during the transition to a new coaching staff. He could also play Jon Kitna while a new QB sits and learns.

He'll also have a chance to do something Palmer didn't: play for a different HC while still a Bengal.

I feel the same about AJ Green. I never blamed these guys for the playoff/prime-time/Steelers problems. Heck, I don't know how many times I've thought to myself "Dalton and AJ are all that's keeping this team afloat" over the last few years. They even managed to have this disaster of a team sitting at 5-3 til the magic ran out.

Their time is running out, but I wouldn't mind (and might prefer) they get 1 run with the new HC.

I think they've earned that chance.

I just think we have to many holes as is, no need to go poking more holes inthis ship its sinking just fine. Even though I don't think this team will ever win a SB with Dalton, he's still better than most options. We just need to stock pile the crap out of OL & LB's via FA/Draft. Then get our QB next year. QB should always be the priority in todays league, I just don't think this is the year to reach with all the other needs we have. If a QB falls in our lap on draft day, grab him. If not trade back or start taking the best OL/LB in the board. But damn this team has to be active in FA day one.

(01-05-2019, 12:03 PM)Fullrock Wrote:  If you want to see how quickly a rebuild can work just look at the Browns. From 0-16 to quite possibly the best team in the AFC North for the foreseeable future. They stockpiled draft picks and hit some home runs on them, but hell they even missed on some too. Then they added some important pieces via FA and here they are looking at competing for the AFC North for years to come. 

Over the last 5 drafts the Browns have had 10 first round picks, 6 seconds, and 9 thirds.  Yet they still had a losing record and the 30th ranked defense in the league.  They have found a good QB, but they are a good example of how uncertain draft picks can be.

(01-05-2019, 12:12 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: I bet Oakland regrets trading Mack. Maybe they turn those picks into some good players, but the odds of one of them being as good as him are probably pretty low.

I think they got rid of Mack and Cooper basically as salary dumps. I've heard that Davis doesn't have money. That's why he's running to Vegas. He threw all of that money at Gruden to take the pressure off of him. Gruden can look like he's tearing it down, but in reality ownership is broke til they leave Oakland.

No reason to trade AJ Green at all. He's a #1 WR and will continue to be one for several more years. Dalton, on the other hand, has the Dalton Line named after him for a reason, but even so unless you are going to get a better QB what's the point of trading him?

If we want a SB we are better off fixing the OL and LBs, then draft a QB after that. Dalton will still be Dalton next off-season.

This team is always a guessing game whether we're going to be good or not. Building mainly threw the draft is always a gamble, nobody knows how these guys will pan out. We have got to start bringing in proven players in F/A. I agree we need a franchise QB, Dalton needs way too many weapons around him to be consistent, if we draft bust so goes Dalton and the team. Picks aren't panning out and it's showing. Trading Dalton and Green would be foolish with the way this team operates, not to mention the poor scouting and draft selections. We need to be more aggressive in FA so we can have take BPA in the draft instead of reaching for positions.

No way would I trade Dalton and Green right now, but just suppose it had to happen, say both were going to be FAs and said they want nothing to do with the Bengals we could always call up Gruden with the Raiders with his collection of upcoming picks, but it's still a crap shoot hoping picks pan out.  Yes, both are aging, but so what? Andy can potentially play several more years and AJ? Who knows? A bad toe isn't exactly the worst problem any WR has ever had and he doesn't exactly fall into the injury prone category like many other have over the years.

(01-05-2019, 03:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the last 5 drafts the Browns have had 10 first round picks, 6 seconds, and 9 thirds.  Yet they still had a losing record and the 30th ranked defense in the league.  They have found a good QB, but they are a good example of how uncertain draft picks can be.

Cleveland has missed more than hit and has a track record of trading good players for not so good or for more picks they've also missed on..  Any Browns player who thinks hes not on the trading block at any given point isn't really paying attention.. 

(01-05-2019, 11:14 AM)jason Wrote: I just see it as opening two more holes to fill. Right now I think we're a LT, LB or two maybe, G, and a legit DE away. I'm not sure I wanna add QB and a receiver to that list.

This is the perspective that serious fans should be taking.  The numbers show that when Andy is hot, he is with the best in the league.  You can't just "plug and play" a rookie QB behind a cobbled OL, and get near the production that Andy has demonstrated the past couple years.  Not many HC candidates get to inherit a proven, veteran QB like Andy Dalton.  I'm betting that whomever is selected for the position will be thankful that he has a good QB to start out with.

Right now, this team need position players, at the fundamental positions of blockers and tacklers.  Those are much easier to come by than a multiple Pro-Bowl tandem of QB and WR like we have in Andy and AJ.