(01-15-2019, 01:30 AM)Whatever Wrote: I think I remember seeing where he said he wants $15 mil guaranteed from the A's to forgo the NFL draft.  I can see him giving it a year or two in the NFL, then going back to baseball.  Depending on where he's drafted, the offset language in his contract will be interesting.

Offset is based on another NFL team claiming you. Because that wouldn't matter if he went back to baseball as they'd still own his rights it wouldn't be applicable here. 

The only QB in this draft that sort of piques my curiosity is Will Grier, and the earliest I'd really consider him is Round 2 (if he fell to Round 3 I'd sprint to the podium).

I don't think Dwayne Haskins lasts to #11, I don't think Kyler Murray will pan out, Drew Lock scares me from a consistency standpoint, Daniel Jones is a nothing-burger.

(01-14-2019, 06:53 PM)Chezaugie Wrote: http://www.espn.com/nfl/draft2019/story/_/id/25761371/kyler-murray-oklahoma-sooners-qb-enters-nfl-draft

Would hate to be the team that drafts him and then he decides to go to MLB.

I expect the reasons he chose the NFL over MLB (for now) are because he probably likes football more than baseball but also because he's going to get a big paycheck out of the gate rather than wait potentially years down the line.

I haven't been looking into QBs much though this offseason because I don't think the Bengals will take one early, so I'm not confident in Murray's abilities for the NFL, but he's expected to be measured in shorter than 5'10" officially for the NFL. While there are QBs shorter than 6'0" in the NFL, there is a difference between 5'9" and 6'0". That much harder to see and throw over linemen (accurately).

(01-15-2019, 10:10 AM)Big Boss Wrote: The only QB in this draft that sort of piques my curiosity is Will Grier, and the earliest I'd really consider him is Round 2 (if he fell to Round 3 I'd sprint to the podium).

I don't think Dwayne Haskins lasts to #11, I don't think Kyler Murray will pan out, Drew Lock scares me from a consistency standpoint, Daniel Jones is a nothing-burger.

I'm the same for all your points. For Haskins, I'm even nervous given he's only started for one year. If I were to take him in the 1st round, I wouldn't have expectations he'd light it up in his first 1-2 years. He needs to get better at throwing under pressure.
Grier, from what I've read and watched, looks to have a floor of Andy Dalton, but he has a slightly better arm. Grier might be the safest QB of the bunch.

In the most recent CBS Sports mock I just read, they have the Bengals getting Jonah Williams all the way to 15 because of a trade with Washington, but this bit stuck out to me...

Quote:Williams has consistently been a top-10 pick in our mock drafts but Kyler Murray has thrown the top half of the board into upheaval.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/news/2019-nfl-mock-draft-giants-land-kyler-murray-steelers-replace-antonio-brown-jaguars-redskins-trade-up-for-qb/
Could Murray actually benefit the Bengals by causing some other players more suited for the Bengals to drop, like Jonah Williams?
And related to the mock, are Haskins, Murray, Jones, and Lock all worth selections in the first round?
I'm actually hoping at least the first question ends up being true, as I'd love to get Jonah Williams.

His height is a concern. He really does have a lot of other good traits though. He was a 69 percent passer this year. He has great feet. Arm strength seems adequate...I will be curious how he performs at workouts...if he can make NFL throws.

Oh man, I was jumping on the Kylar Murray hype train....and then I read this thread.

He’s polarizing to say the least.

(01-15-2019, 10:50 AM)ochocincos Wrote: While there are QBs shorter than 6'0" in the NFL, there is a difference between 5'9" and 6'0". That much harder to see and throw over linemen (accurately).

His line was on average 6'4/6'5 in college which is standard for an NFL line, that should be no surprise because two of them will be drafted and his center will eventually be drafted (True Freshman). He played against Bama with a whole slew of NFL d linemen and he had only 1 batted pass I think in that game. With shorter QB's like Wilson and Brees it's about sliding in the pocket to find throwing lanes, he actually does this well. A lot of people think of him as a runner but he is more often a runner to open up the throw. He will slide in the pocket to get a better launch point for his throws. 

I actually like the guy, and wouldn't mind drafting him in the 2nd, but he won't make it there. A slide back into the 20's and I'd consider drafting him and using the additional capital to slide up in the 2nd for the best LB on the board. He is more Baker Mayfield to me than any other comps I have seen. Less of a personality, however some teams may view his MLB leverage as a red flag. I think he can work in the league but again you need to pair him with an OC who is willing to do what he does well. Similar to what Mahomes is doing, you will want a lot of air raid and spread concepts mixed in as he hasn't ever taken snaps under center. An old school coach who is inflexible won't work with him, so a fit is a big deal here. 

(01-15-2019, 11:40 AM)The Real Deal Wrote: Oh man, I was jumping on the Kylar Murray hype train....and then I read this thread.

He’s polarizing to say the least.

Whoever drafts him will have to have a pretty specific plan on how to use him.  And i don't think that means making him a running QB.  He could never stand up to what Jackson did with the Ratbirds.

That said, for all we know, there might be a team out there putting their plan together for him right now.

(01-15-2019, 12:00 PM)Au165 Wrote: His line was on average 6'4/6'5 in college which is standard for an NFL line, that should be no surprise because two of them will be drafted and his center will eventually be drafted (True Freshman). He played against Bama with a whole slew of NFL d linemen and he had only 1 batted pass I think in that game. With shorter QB's like Wilson and Brees it's about sliding in the pocket to find throwing lanes, he actually does this well. A lot of people think of him as a runner but he is more often a runner to open up the throw. He will slide in the pocket to get a better launch point for his throws. 

I actually like the guy, and wouldn't mind drafting him in the 2nd, but he won't make it there. A slide back into the 20's and I'd consider drafting him and using the additional capital to slide up in the 2nd for the best LB on the board. He is more Baker Mayfield to me than any other comps I have seen. Less of a personality, however some teams may view his MLB leverage as a red flag. I think he can work in the league but again you need to pair him with an OC who is willing to do what he does well. Similar to what Mahomes is doing, you will want a lot of air raid and spread concepts mixed in as he hasn't ever taken snaps under center. An old school coach who is inflexible won't work with him, so a fit is a big deal here. 

Do you feel that the offensive gameplan catered to allow Murray to perform better given his height restrictions? Like were lanes opened or designed scrambles/runs where he didn't have the OL directly in his vision all the time? If so, would this need to be done in order to give Murray a better chance to succeed?

(01-15-2019, 12:55 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Do you feel that the offensive gameplan catered to allow Murray to perform better given his height restrictions? Like were lanes opened or designed scrambles/runs where he didn't have the OL directly in his vision all the time? If so, would this need to be done in order to give Murray a better chance to succeed?

They used some sprint outs and boots, but it's not a staple of the offense. The height thing is a relic of older times to me when people lined up under center. On a 3 step drop from under center your field of view is tough if you are under 6'1 or 6'2, but that's not the case anymore with offenses playing a majority of their snaps in shotgun. while the 3 step usually ends up where shotgun starts the issue is what you can see while you drop versus what you see pre play in shotgun. One place it is still an issue will be drags and maybe stick routes by the TE because of their proximity to the line in route, this is where sliding for lanes comes in. When your a mobile QB who steps up what often happens is the lane opens between the tackle and the guard, sometimes one guard and center lane will open depending on the single side match up, giving you easy throws but you need the time to slide.

I think if you commit to go with Murray you commit to play 90% of your gameplan from shotgun or pistol. I think this will require a special OC because it really makes the power running game different then a lot of what NFL teams have historically ran. Urban Meyer and his various OC's have done a lot with power from shotgun sets over the last decade and it's trickled into the NFL at a decent pace but it would need to be adapted quick or else you are committing to a zone running scheme out of shotgun. Nothing wrong with that, but it goes back to what I was saying about needing the right fit to do it. 

(01-15-2019, 01:31 PM)Au165 Wrote: They used some sprint outs and boots, but it's not a staple of the offense. The height thing is a relic of older times to me when people lined up under center. On a 3 step drop from under center your field of view is tough if you are under 6'1 or 6'2, but that's not the case anymore with offenses playing a majority of their snaps in shotgun. while the 3 step usually ends up where shotgun starts the issue is what you can see while you drop versus what you see pre play in shotgun. One place it is still an issue will be drags and maybe stick routes by the TE because of their proximity to the line in route, this is where sliding for lanes comes in. When your a mobile QB who steps up what often happens is the lane opens between the tackle and the guard, sometimes one guard and center lane will open depending on the single side match up, giving you easy throws but you need the time to slide.

I think if you commit to go with Murray you commit to play 90% of your gameplan from shotgun or pistol. I think this will require a special OC because it really makes the power running game different then a lot of what NFL teams have historically ran. Urban Meyer and his various OC's have done a lot with power from shotgun sets over the last decade and it's trickled into the NFL at a decent pace but it would need to be adapted quick or else you are committing to a zone running scheme out of shotgun. Nothing wrong with that, but it goes back to what I was saying about needing the right fit to do it. 

Good explanation, and I think that's what I was assuming. Murray should be put into a situation that takes advantage of his gifts and limits his weaknesses.

(01-15-2019, 01:36 PM)ochocincos Wrote: Good explanation, and I think that's what I was assuming. Murray should be put into a situation that takes advantage of his gifts and limits his weaknesses.

Mahomes isn't short, but the arm angle stuff he does and the way he moves to throw is similar to what Murray does and needs to do to make throws. If you want him to drop back sit in a pocket and go straight arm over top throwing it probably doesn't end well for anyone. 

I really wonder how he'd do in a system like New Orleans under Sean Payton. The worst thing that can happen for him is to go to some dilapidated pro-style offense who won't let him get out and move around.

(01-15-2019, 05:47 PM)PikesPeakUC Wrote: I really wonder how he'd do in a system like New Orleans under Sean Payton. The worst thing that can happen for him is to go to some dilapidated pro-style offense who won't let him get out and move around.

This sounds weird, but I think if Tampa decided they didn't want to hitch their horse to Jameis Bruce Arians could actually do well with him. He likes to use the run game to setup the vertical passing game and has incorporated a decent amount of Air Raid concepts in the past. People overlook that Murray relied heavily on a strong running game to setup a lot of the other things they did. 

(01-15-2019, 05:54 PM)Au165 Wrote: This sounds weird, but I think if Tampa decided they didn't want to hitch their horse to Jameis Bruce Arians could actually do well with him. He likes to use the run game to setup the vertical passing game and has incorporated a decent amount of Air Raid concepts in the past. People overlook that Murray relied heavily on a strong running game to setup a lot of the other things they did. 

Oh I agree. I just meant someone who was going to throw him under center and just hammer it and make him a mostly pocket guy. The run, run, pass, punt type of deal. 

The run is a big part of his game and opens up passing lanes, and after, lanes for him to run in, but I fear he'd get stuck with someone who lacks creativity offensively. I.E. Russell Wilson in Seattle.

I like Murray as a player. Think if he were bigger, he would be a higher pick than he will be.
He's still in my top 5 QBs though. His size is the biggest concern. I know there's short quarterbacks and you can create passing lanes. But the issue is what's his play going to be like the more he gets hit? Will he have an injury problem?

If taller and bigger, he's a top 15 pick. But a GM/coach is going to have to decide if they can trust in him staying healthy in the NFL.

(01-15-2019, 07:37 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: I like Murray as a player. Think if he were bigger, he would be a higher pick than he will be.
He's still in my top 5 QBs though. His size is the biggest concern. I know there's short quarterbacks and you can create passing lanes. But the issue is what's his play going to be like the more he gets hit? Will he have an injury problem?

If taller and bigger, he's a top 15 pick. But a GM/coach is going to have to decide if they can trust in him staying healthy in the NFL.

You definitely can't use him like Lamar Jackson or he'll get keelt.  He's a baseball player, so he knows how to slide and he'd better know how to step out of bounds.  Your offense has to be the don't get Kyler hit offense.  Every time he gets hit, the whole franchise will be holding its breath.

He'll have to make it with his arm and his brain.  I don't think heart will ever be a problem.

(01-15-2019, 08:06 PM)McC Wrote: You definitely can't use him like Lamar Jackson or he'll get keelt.  He's a baseball player, so he knows how to slide and he'd better know how to step out of bounds.  Your offense has to be the don't get Kyler hit offense.  Every time he gets hit, the whole franchise will be holding its breath.

He'll have to make it with his arm and his brain.  I don't think heart will ever be a problem.

The positive is he's very good in the pocket. He's accurate and can make some ridiculous plays.

But if you have a shaky offensive line, like the Texans (they won't draft him, just using as an example), then your best bet may be to sit him for a year and go all in on building an offensive line after that

(01-15-2019, 08:14 PM)wolfkaosaun Wrote: The positive is he's very good in the pocket. He's accurate and can make some ridiculous plays.

But if you have a shaky offensive line, like the Texans (they won't draft him, just using as an example), then your best bet may be to sit him for a year and go all in on building an offensive line after that

In truth, he is pretty damn hard to get a big hit on, but nobody escapes them all.  Ask RGIII.