I think the Bengals can fix this defense fast.  Last year the Bengals were willing to bring in an OT paid in the top 10 in the league at his position and an ILB paid in the top half of the league at his.  And the Bengals have proven that they are willing to be a little aggressive in free agency.

In 2011 we signed three new starters for our defense.  The numbers don't sound high now, but they were not bad for 8 years ago.  

Nate Clements was getting old, but he was still a decent starter when we signed him at $10.5 million for 2 years.  Clements was a former Pro Bowler who had 82 tkls and 3 picks for the Niners in 2010.

Thomas Howard (2 yr $6.5 mil) had 62 career starts with 7 ints and almost 400 tkls for the Raiders.

Manny Lawson (1 yr $3 mil) had 56 starts, 14.5 sacks, and 240 tkls for the Niners.

They were 3 solid signings, and along with Geno busting out into a Pro Bowler his second year the defense moved up from 24 in points to number 9 and from 15th to 7th in yards.

Now let us look at our current situation on defense.

I have faith in our CBs.  Both Jackson and Kirkpatrick have shown they can be good starters, and Dennard has looked good at times also.  None of them are injured or old enough to be headed down hill.  I think they will be fine with better coaching.  

I also have faith in Lawson.  I know he only had 1 sack, but according to a new ESPN stat called "Pass Rush Win Rate" Lawson was 3rd in the league in beating his blocker in 2.5 seconds or quicker when he went down with injury.  He has elite skills.  If he stays healthy he can be a star.

Last year Hubbard lead all rookie D-linemen with 6 sacks and was 3rd in tackles.  Most NFL players get better after their rookie season, I have a lot of faith in Hubbard.  I think he will be a very good player for us.

Bates led all rookie DBs with 111 tkls, and his 3 ints was just one behind rookie leader Donte Jackson.  If he improves from his rookie season we have another very good player.

Geno Atkins was one of just 4 interior D-linemen with double digit sacks, and he was also near the top with 13 tacles for loss, and 19 QB hits.

Carlos Dunlap had 8 sacks but was first in the league among DEs with 8 passes defended (tipped passes) and 12th in QB hits (21).


We have a lot of talent on defense.  If get better coaching and upgraded three positions in free agency we could have a top defense again immediately.

Honestly if we fix the LB crew then I think this unit can be a top 5 unit. The way they were playing at the end of the season was close to elite.

(01-15-2019, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We have a lot of talent on defense.  If get better coaching and upgraded three positions in free agency we could have a top defense again immediately.

I believe so as well

Geno and Carlos are still very, very, good players. I don't think we've come close to seeing Jackson at his best. Bates looks to be a real baller. Hubbard and Lawson are both on the rise. Glasgow was on fire before injury and Ringo showed promise.

Put a genuine effort into fixing the LBers and we'll have a top 3rd unit.

(01-15-2019, 09:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I believe so as well

Geno and Carlos are still very, very, good players. I don't think we've come close to seeing Jackson at his best. Bates looks to be a real baller. Hubbard and Lawson are both on the rise. Glasgow was on fire before injury and Ringo showed promise.

Put a genuine effort into fixing the LBers and we'll have a top 3rd unit.

Coming from dead last in LB productivity, jumping to top 1/3 of the league would take this defense back to the Zimmer years.

(01-15-2019, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think the Bengals can fix this defense fast.  Last year the Bengals were willing to bring in an OT paid in the top 10 in the league at his position and an ILB paid in the top half of the league at his.  And the Bengal have proven that they are willing to be a little aggressive in free agency.

In 2011 we signed three new starters for our defense.  The numbers don't sound high now, but they were not bad for 8 years ago.  

Nate Clements was getting old, but he was still a decent starter when we signed him at $10.5 million for 2 years.  Clements was a former Pro Bowler who had 82 tkls and 3 picks for the Niners in 2010.

Thomas Howard (2 yr $6.5 mil) had 62 career starts with 7 ints and almost 400 tkls for the Raiders.

Manny Lawson (1 yr $3 mil) had 56 starts, 14.5 sacks, and 240 tkls for the Niners.

They were 3 solid signings, and along with Geno busting out into a Pro Bowler his second year the defense moved up from 24 in points to number 9 and from 15th to 7th in yards.

Now let us look at our current situation on defense.

I have faith in our CBs.  Both Jackson and Kirkpatrick have shown they can be good starters, and Dennard has looked good at time also.  None of them are injured or old enough to be headed down hill.  I think they will be fine with better coaching.  

I also have faith in Lawson.  I know he only had 1 sack, but according to a new ESPN stat called "Pass Rush Win Rate" Lawson was 3rd in the league in beating his blocker in 2.5 seconds or quicker when he went down with injury.  He has elite skills.  If he stays healthy he can be a star.

Last year Hubbard lead all rookie D-linemen with 6 sacks and was 3rd in tackles.  Most NFL players get better after their rookie season, I have a lot of faith in Hubbard.  I think he will be very good player for us.

Bates led all rookie DBs with 111 tkls, and his 3 ints was just one behind rookie leader Donte Jackson.  If he improve from his rookie season we have anther very good player.

Geno Atkins was one of just 4 interior D-linemen with double digit sacks, and he as also near the top with 13 tacles for loss, and 19 QB hits.

Carlos Dunlap had 8 sacks but was first in the league among DEs with 8 passes defended (tipped passes) and 12th in QB hits (21).


We have a lot of talent on defense.  If get better coaching and upgraded three positions in free agency we could have a top defense again immediately.

Agreed. I still think Devin White added to this defense would make it really special. That said, I don't think we need major changes but I will add that adding more than one LB may be a good idea. 

(01-15-2019, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think the Bengals can fix this defense fast.  Last year the Bengals were willing to bring in an OT paid in the top 10 in the league at his position and an ILB paid in the top half of the league at his.  And the Bengal have proven that they are willing to be a little aggressive in free agency.

In 2011 we signed three new starters for our defense.  The numbers don't sound high now, but they were not bad for 8 years ago.  

Nate Clements was getting old, but he was still a decent starter when we signed him at $10.5 million for 2 years.  Clements was a former Pro Bowler who had 82 tkls and 3 picks for the Niners in 2010.

Thomas Howard (2 yr $6.5 mil) had 62 career starts with 7 ints and almost 400 tkls for the Raiders.

Manny Lawson (1 yr $3 mil) had 56 starts, 14.5 sacks, and 240 tkls for the Niners.

They were 3 solid signings, and along with Geno busting out into a Pro Bowler his second year the defense moved up from 24 in points to number 9 and from 15th to 7th in yards.

Now let us look at our current situation on defense.

I have faith in our CBs.  Both Jackson and Kirkpatrick have shown they can be good starters, and Dennard has looked good at time also.  None of them are injured or old enough to be headed down hill.  I think they will be fine with better coaching.  

I also have faith in Lawson.  I know he only had 1 sack, but according to a new ESPN stat called "Pass Rush Win Rate" Lawson was 3rd in the league in beating his blocker in 2.5 seconds or quicker when he went down with injury.  He has elite skills.  If he stays healthy he can be a star.

Last year Hubbard lead all rookie D-linemen with 6 sacks and was 3rd in tackles.  Most NFL players get better after their rookie season, I have a lot of faith in Hubbard.  I think he will be very good player for us.

Bates led all rookie DBs with 111 tkls, and his 3 ints was just one behind rookie leader Donte Jackson.  If he improve from his rookie season we have anther very good player.

Geno Atkins was one of just 4 interior D-linemen with double digit sacks, and he as also near the top with 13 tacles for loss, and 19 QB hits.

Carlos Dunlap had 8 sacks but was first in the league among DEs with 8 passes defended (tipped passes) and 12th in QB hits (21).


We have a lot of talent on defense.  If get better coaching and upgraded three positions in free agency we could have a top defense again immediately.

Agreed. I still think Devin White added to this defense would make it really special. That said, I don't think we need major changes but I will add that adding more than one LB may be a good idea. 

(01-15-2019, 10:10 PM)SunsetBengal Wrote: Coming from dead last in LB productivity, jumping to top 1/3 of the league would take this defense back to the Zimmer years.

I think it's doable, I really do.

I believe this team ran into a sort of perfect storm that sunk the season. Austin, injuries, chaos. 

(01-15-2019, 10:13 PM)BengalFanInNJ Wrote: Agreed. I still think Devin White added to this defense would make it really special. That said, I don't think we need major changes but I will add that adding more than one LB may be a good idea. 

Four stack linebackers were taken in the first round in 2018 (Roquan Smith, Tremaine Edmunds, Leighton Vander Esch, and Rashaan Evans), but the 5th one taken at the top of the second round (Darius Leonard) had the best year out of all of them.

My point is don't lock onto a prospect.

(01-15-2019, 10:23 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I think it's doable, I really do.

I believe this team ran into a sort of perfect storm that sunk the season. Austin, injuries, chaos. 

You just might be right.  I never wish for bad things to happen, but in this instance, maybe that is what it took to finally get the major changes that were needed?  I still have a lot of respect for Marvin Lewis, and the things that he was able to accomplish.  I wanted for him to end his career here on a good note, but unfortunately it did not.  

He (Marvin) has left this team for Zac, with basically a good roster.  There are enough capable stars that are still hungry for something big, that I don't feel like he'll have to make a huge turnover to make big things happen.  

(01-15-2019, 09:45 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Honestly if we fix the LB crew then I think this unit can be a top 5 unit. The way they were playing at the end of the season was close to elite.

Yes. We need 1 REALLY GOOD LB. Then another good one and we should be fine. Then Vigil is the 3rd starter.

A guy like White from LSU that is big and can cover would be really good.

I wouldn't complain if we used a high draft pick or free agent money on a DT.

(01-15-2019, 11:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I wouldn't complain if we used a high draft pick or free agent money on a DT.

Yes. A big DT who can drop anchor and force backs to redirect.

There are three or four in this year's draft.

(01-15-2019, 09:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I think the Bengals can fix this defense fast.  Last year the Bengals were willing to bring in an OT paid in the top 10 in the league at his position and an ILB paid in the top half of the league at his.  And the Bengals have proven that they are willing to be a little aggressive in free agency.

In 2011 we signed three new starters for our defense.  The numbers don't sound high now, but they were not bad for 8 years ago.  

Nate Clements was getting old, but he was still a decent starter when we signed him at $10.5 million for 2 years.  Clements was a former Pro Bowler who had 82 tkls and 3 picks for the Niners in 2010.

Thomas Howard (2 yr $6.5 mil) had 62 career starts with 7 ints and almost 400 tkls for the Raiders.

Manny Lawson (1 yr $3 mil) had 56 starts, 14.5 sacks, and 240 tkls for the Niners.

They were 3 solid signings, and along with Geno busting out into a Pro Bowler his second year the defense moved up from 24 in points to number 9 and from 15th to 7th in yards.

Now let us look at our current situation on defense.

I have faith in our CBs.  Both Jackson and Kirkpatrick have shown they can be good starters, and Dennard has looked good at times also.  None of them are injured or old enough to be headed down hill.  I think they will be fine with better coaching.  

I also have faith in Lawson.  I know he only had 1 sack, but according to a new ESPN stat called "Pass Rush Win Rate" Lawson was 3rd in the league in beating his blocker in 2.5 seconds or quicker when he went down with injury.  He has elite skills.  If he stays healthy he can be a star.

Last year Hubbard lead all rookie D-linemen with 6 sacks and was 3rd in tackles.  Most NFL players get better after their rookie season, I have a lot of faith in Hubbard.  I think he will be a very good player for us.

Bates led all rookie DBs with 111 tkls, and his 3 ints was just one behind rookie leader Donte Jackson.  If he improves from his rookie season we have another very good player.

Geno Atkins was one of just 4 interior D-linemen with double digit sacks, and he was also near the top with 13 tacles for loss, and 19 QB hits.

Carlos Dunlap had 8 sacks but was first in the league among DEs with 8 passes defended (tipped passes) and 12th in QB hits (21).


We have a lot of talent on defense.  If get better coaching and upgraded three positions in free agency we could have a top defense again immediately.

With you 100%.  The offense might need a little more depth because so many guys went down this year, but I hope they don't see the defensive effort against pitt in week 17 as some sign that the defense is "good enough".  They were legendarily bad, but like you, I believe a few key additions can get them right back to playoff caliber defense.  

They need a veteran LB that might cost a bit.  A reliable, speedy LB that can be paired with Vigil in nickel.   They also need to draft one early to be ready to step in and hopefully earn his way on the field.  I love White from LSU.  I would even go as far as drafting another LB in the 4-5 round to look for more quality depth and, hopefully, a diamond in the rough.

I agree with everything you said about our DEs and secondary (maybe a better safety to pair with Bates?) but the DT next to Geno needs addressing as well.  Not sure what to expect of Glasgow coming off significant knee surgery, and Billings isn't a quality starter.  

Free agency will be huge for this defense.  The offense might need to sign one or two of their own TEs, but the defense is the biggest liability.

Here's to hoping we get some impact guys and not just cast-offs.  

(01-16-2019, 11:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: With you 100%.  The offense might need a little more depth because so many guys went down this year, but I hope they don't see the defensive effort against pitt in week 17 as some sign that the defense is "good enough".  They were legendarily bad, but like you, I believe a few key additions can get them right back to playoff caliber defense.  

They need a veteran LB that might cost a bit.  A reliable, speedy LB that can be paired with Vigil in nickel.   They also need to draft one early to be ready to step in and hopefully earn his way on the field.  I love White from LSU.  I would even go as far as drafting another LB in the 4-5 round to look for more quality depth and, hopefully, a diamond in the rough.

I agree with everything you said about our DEs and secondary (maybe a better safety to pair with Bates?) but the DT next to Geno needs addressing as well.  Not sure what to expect of Glasgow coming off significant knee surgery, and Billings isn't a quality starter.  

Free agency will be huge for this defense.  The offense might need to sign one or two of their own TEs, but the defense is the biggest liability.

Here's to hoping we get some impact guys and not just cast-offs.  

Hoping that the mantra "Good Enough" is finally gone from this franchise! 
I think Williams had a very good year at safety, but we should have some young guys like Henderson coming back from injuries that could hopefully step up and maybe allow them to do what the Chargers did against the Ravens. Drop Williams down to LB and get more DBs on the field to cover people or chase down QBs.

(01-15-2019, 11:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I wouldn't complain if we used a high draft pick or free agent money on a DT.

Wouldn't hurt at all, but Billings got better and better as the season wore on; we're fine at NT and if Glasgow is all healed up (which he should be), spelling Billings will make it perfect.

Not worried.

(01-15-2019, 09:45 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: Honestly if we fix the LB crew then I think this unit can be a top 5 unit. The way they were playing at the end of the season was close to elite.

Add in a DC who can get the omst of the players he does have and can scheme around them, we could easily have a top 10 defense next year even without a major splash in free agency. 

(01-16-2019, 11:00 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: With you 100%.  The offense might need a little more depth because so many guys went down this year, but I hope they don't see the defensive effort against pitt in week 17 as some sign that the defense is "good enough".  They were legendarily bad, but like you, I believe a few key additions can get them right back to playoff caliber defense.  

They need a veteran LB that might cost a bit.  A reliable, speedy LB that can be paired with Vigil in nickel.   They also need to draft one early to be ready to step in and hopefully earn his way on the field.  I love White from LSU.  I would even go as far as drafting another LB in the 4-5 round to look for more quality depth and, hopefully, a diamond in the rough.

I agree with everything you said about our DEs and secondary (maybe a better safety to pair with Bates?) but the DT next to Geno needs addressing as well.  Not sure what to expect of Glasgow coming off significant knee surgery, and Billings isn't a quality starter.  

Free agency will be huge for this defense.  The offense might need to sign one or two of their own TEs, but the defense is the biggest liability.

Here's to hoping we get some impact guys and not just cast-offs.  

First off, good post fred.  I think you're right.

As for this SH, I agree as well.  Although, I think Williams had a fine year....4 or 5 INTs?  As sandwedge noted, I wonder what he would look like as a nickle backer....or used like the Chargers did against Baltimore?

(01-16-2019, 01:23 PM)Wyche Wrote: First off, good post fred.  I think you're right.

As for this SH, I agree as well.  Although, I think Williams had a fine year....4 or 5 INTs?  As sandwedge noted, I wonder what he would look like as a nickle backer....or used like the Chargers did against Baltimore?

He got ejected in the first quarter of the Colts game and his replacement won the game single-handedly.  Williams is awful at tackling in space and isn't much better at coverage.  To be fair, though, we ask an awful lot of these guys with minimal blitz calls and minimal pass rush.  

And although what the Chargers did against the Rats worked great in terms of preventing their QB from outrunning them to the edge, they looked awful against Brady and Co.

Not saying it wasn't brilliant against that version of Jackson (seemed to do better once he was letting it fly) but against a better QB, maybe not.  

(01-16-2019, 05:42 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He got ejected in the first quarter of the Colts game and his replacement won the game single-handedly.  Williams is awful at tackling in space and isn't much better at coverage.  To be fair, though, we ask an awful lot of these guys with minimal blitz calls and minimal pass rush.  

And although what the Chargers did against the Rats worked great in terms of preventing their QB from outrunning them to the edge, they looked awful against Brady and Co.

Not saying it wasn't brilliant against that version of Jackson (seemed to do better once he was letting it fly) but against a better QB, maybe not.  

This is just silly; why cut one of our best players because of one play? Anyways he was second on the team in tackles and led the team in interceptions.

(01-16-2019, 05:42 PM)SHRacerX Wrote: He got ejected in the first quarter of the Colts game and his replacement won the game single-handedly.  Williams is awful at tackling in space and isn't much better at coverage.  To be fair, though, we ask an awful lot of these guys with minimal blitz calls and minimal pass rush.  

And although what the Chargers did against the Rats worked great in terms of preventing their QB from outrunning them to the edge, they looked awful against Brady and Co.

Not saying it wasn't brilliant against that version of Jackson (seemed to do better once he was letting it fly) but against a better QB, maybe not.  

Yeah, but they didn't run that defense against NE, seems it was a one off deal to stop Jackson, and it worked.

As for the ejection, I get it, but I think they were trigger happy on that one.  A 15 yarder?  Sure.  I don't feel the ejection was warranted though.  Like I said, though, he led the team in INTs, and was 2nd in tackles, I think.  I'd keep him around, but that's just me.