(01-16-2019, 10:29 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: This. Plus, how much can we hold some of these guys accountable for the scheme?  Sure, a missed tackle is a missed tackle, but I want my LBs flying all over the place.  If you miss, fine, but if you think you see something, try to make a play.  I know he was a safety, but I have never seen a player that played so free and would make more impact plays than Troy Palumolu.  That kid was amazing.  Sure, he led with his head on tackles and probably won't know who he is in 5 years, but his play was amazing. 

A good example of a Bengal that would make mistakes but played fast and hard is Odell Thurman.  He wasn't the classic Thumper, but at 6'0", 230 lbs, that guy was a menace.  He had 5 INTs and 5 FF in his rookie season.  Sure, he had tons of issues off the field, sadly, that ended his career, but I remember Marv would always be on him to play more disciplined and I was thinking "Shut up, Marv! Take a page our of Jimmy Johnson's playbook!" He wanted guys to be playmakers and play fast, not timid.

Great post SHRacer, this is exactly the type of playmakers we need at LB'er and great points about Polamalu and Odell Thurman, these guys just played as fast as they could and would make mistakes but they would make up for them with this type of play. Think this started with Marv here and this complacency and not wanting to gamble or make mistakes.

So glad he is gone and the team is gambling on a new young HC in Taylor.

Bet Taylor will do the same with the new coaches his picks, namely DC and LB coach.

(01-16-2019, 10:29 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: A good example of a Bengal that would make mistakes but played fast and hard is Odell Thurman.  He wasn't the classic Thumper, but at 6'0", 230 lbs, that guy was a menace.  He had 5 INTs and 5 FF in his rookie season.  Sure, he had tons of issues off the field, sadly, that ended his career, but I remember Marv would always be on him to play more disciplined and I was thinking "Shut up, Marv! Take a page our of Jimmy Johnson's playbook!" He wanted guys to be playmakers and play fast, not timid.

Thurman made 10 plays to force turnovers, but the fact that he was out of position so often on the other 900 plays was a big reason we had the 28th ranked defense in the league.  Just look at what happened in the playoff game when Odell did not force any turnovers.  I think the Steelers score on every drive in the second half.

Being out of position has zero to do with being timid.  Both Jimmy Johnson and Marvin Lewis want guys to play with aggression but also to do their job.  Johnson would never have said "I don't care if you ignore your assignment as long as you are running around like crazy." 

(01-16-2019, 06:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thurman made 10 plays to force turnovers, but the fact that he was out of position so often on the other 900 plays was a big reason we had the 28th ranked defense in the league.  Just look at what happened in the playoff game when Odell did not force any turnovers.  I think the Steelers score on every drive in the second half.

Being out of position has zero to do with being timid.  Both Jimmy Johnson and Marvin Lewis want guys to play with aggression but also to do their job.  Johnson would never have said "I don't care if you ignore your assignment as long as you are running around like crazy." 

He was so out of position that he was in the running for DROTY?  And you use the playoff game as evidence of that because he didn't force any turnovers?  

And while being out of position may have little to do with being timid, being timid does impact ones ability to make big plays and that was my point in referencing Thurman.  Maybe you could have chosen to understand my point with the Polumalu reference.

(01-16-2019, 06:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thurman made 10 plays to force turnovers, but the fact that he was out of position so often on the other 900 plays was a big reason we had the 28th ranked defense in the league.  Just look at what happened in the playoff game when Odell did not force any turnovers.  I think the Steelers score on every drive in the second half.

Being out of position has zero to do with being timid.  Both Jimmy Johnson and Marvin Lewis want guys to play with aggression but also to do their job.  Johnson would never have said "I don't care if you ignore your assignment as long as you are running around like crazy." 

Still was our best player on that Defense, wasn't his fault our D was that bad, Odell was the bright spot.

(01-17-2019, 08:28 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: He was so out of position that he was in the running for DROTY?  And you use the playoff game as evidence of that because he didn't force any turnovers?  

And while being out of position may have little to do with being timid, being timid does impact ones ability to make big plays and that was my point in referencing Thurman.  Maybe you could have chosen to understand my point with the Polumalu reference.

Being out of position and timid is what our Linebackers were this year, that is why we were so terrible on D.

No matter how it shakes out, it'll likely be a young group, and could use a steady veteran onboard. For that reason, I'd keep Vinny Rey unless some other steady veteran fell into the Bengals lap via free agency. I think Vigil could fill that role eventually-maybe in another year or two- but not yet. Not being specific to this thread, but the Bengals need some players with strong leadership ability. I might start a thread about that.

Well, at least one thing is for sure, we're not keeping Odell Thurman.

Honestly? I say bring everyone back for camp, add a couple of hot draft picks, a couple of free agent acquisitions, just flood the camp with talent of all sorts. Bring in a focused LB coach, allow him to pick who he likes.

Yeah, it's going to lead to a lot of fast and furious cuts, and likely going to the well for more talent along the way. But hey, that's where we are right now.

Give Burfict 1 more to prove himself.

Risk/reward with Burfict:

Risk: If you bring him to camp, it costs you no money, but he may be a distraction. He may call out the coaches like he did to Austin, or he may cause other players to be confused/disappointed if you cut him. If he stays, you may be paying a lot of money for a player who can't stay on the field. 

Reward: You may wind up with an elite, or very good, LB. 

I'd give him a shot in camp if he wants it. If he's done, then he's done. If he's in it to win it, you roll the dice. 

(01-15-2019, 02:16 PM)Okeana Wrote: i don't think vigil is really that bad tbh.

He's not.  He has good speed and coverage ability.  Where he lacks is where Burfict excels, recognition.  But he is only one step off generally so hoping as he matures his recognition will get better and instead of giving up 5-7 yards to the RB in the flat he'll make plays.  We did see some of that this year just not consistently.  I'm down with keeping Vigil.

(01-15-2019, 03:01 PM)Au165 Wrote: I'd like to see one added in FA, to go with a high draft pick. Ocho mentioned Littleton, I think that would be a good fit. I also wouldn't mind Jordan Hicks from the Eagles.

Why not, Jordan Hicks is a local kid (Lakota West).

(01-19-2019, 04:31 AM)Bilbo Saggins Wrote: Risk/reward with Burfict:

Risk: If you bring him to camp, it costs you no money, but he may be a distraction. He may call out the coaches like he did to Austin, or he may cause other players to be confused/disappointed if you cut him. If he stays, you may be paying a lot of money for a player who can't stay on the field. 

Reward: You may wind up with an elite, or very good, LB. 

I'd give him a shot in camp if he wants it. If he's done, then he's done. If he's in it to win it, you roll the dice. 

I really don't remember Burfict ever being a distraction. He has issues with his personal play in the past causing referees to scope in on him, but other than that I don't ever remember him being a problem. (other than the concussions). He's one of the better linebackers in the game. He will get to start the season in OTA's and have a training camp this year, so I suspect he will be more of his old self. Absolutely no reason not to bring Brown back, he is solid, and in the short time he had here prior to his injury, he had an interception. Evans continues to improve and should benefit greatly from a LB coach who isn't 90 years old. (Ok, exaggeration.) Bring them all in for camp, let the best men win....

This is one group I wouldn't care if they completely blew up.

Vigil, Jefferson, Evans as depth if the new LB coach and DC want.

Keeping Brown might be okay but it depends on who else is available and what he wants in terms of contract.

Even if Burfict can turn his play around I still don't like his antics.  

He's really a stupid guy on the field anymore.

NFL refs have him in their sights and he still does unnecessary stuff.

Then there is the concussion side of things.  He could be playing great and then lost again.

I'd rather see the team's efforts and funds spent elsewhere.

(01-16-2019, 10:21 AM)WeezyBengal Wrote: Not really sure I get why everyone is wanting Burfict gone? I would at least bring him into camp and see how it goes.

With the new regime, it’s a perfect opportunity to remove what many (outside of Bengals fans at least) consider the league villain. Vontaze has had multiple years to adapt his game and it hasn’t worked. I wouldn’t expect a new coach to magically come in and make him great again.

Also, as others have said, this is a great opportunity to free up some cap space and invest it into different player(s) instead.

If the Bengals can bring in (at least) a good RT and LB in FA, an ideal draft (for me at least) would be Devin White, two OL, a pass catching TE, and an interior pass rusher.


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(01-16-2019, 06:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thurman made 10 plays to force turnovers, but the fact that he was out of position so often on the other 900 plays was a big reason we had the 28th ranked defense in the league.  Just look at what happened in the playoff game when Odell did not force any turnovers.  I think the Steelers score on every drive in the second half.

Being out of position has zero to do with being timid.  Both Jimmy Johnson and Marvin Lewis want guys to play with aggression but also to do their job.  Johnson would never have said "I don't care if you ignore your assignment as long as you are running around like crazy." 

 
Rookies make rookie mistakes.

Thurman is just one of those times when you shake your head an say "damn...what could have been".

(01-16-2019, 06:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Thurman made 10 plays to force turnovers, but the fact that he was out of position so often on the other 900 plays was a big reason we had the 28th ranked defense in the league.  Just look at what happened in the playoff game when Odell did not force any turnovers.  I think the Steelers score on every drive in the second half.

Being out of position has zero to do with being timid.  Both Jimmy Johnson and Marvin Lewis want guys to play with aggression but also to do their job.  Johnson would never have said "I don't care if you ignore your assignment as long as you are running around like crazy." 

I loved what Odell brought to the team but your right him being undisciplined did not make us a better team. It would have been nice to see what a mature seasoned Odell would have brought to the team.

(01-19-2019, 01:02 PM)Synric Wrote:  
Rookies make rookie mistakes.

Thurman is just one of those times when you shake your head an say "damn...what could have been".

(01-19-2019, 01:32 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: I loved what Odell brought to the team but your right him being undisciplined did not make us a better team. It would have been nice to see what a mature seasoned Odell would have brought to the team.

First of all I agree that Odell had tons of potential on the field.  You can teach a playmaker to play with more discipline easier than you can turn well disciplined average guy into a playmaker.

But O'Dell was a guy I knew would not make it.  Most of you know that I am in favor of giving any of these guys second chances, but Thurman was always out of control.  In college he messed up so many times that he got kicked off the team for a full year.  Then when they let him play again he got suspended again.  He was one of those guys who just never got it.  But he did have a ton of potential.  He was just a natural on the field.

(01-19-2019, 12:56 PM)ochocincos Wrote: With the new regime, it’s a perfect opportunity to remove what many (outside of Bengals fans at least) consider the league villain. Vontaze has had multiple years to adapt his game and it hasn’t worked. I wouldn’t expect a new coach to magically come in and make him great again.

Also, as others have said, this is a great opportunity to free up some cap space and invest it into different player(s) instead.

If the Bengals can bring in (at least) a good RT and LB in FA, an ideal draft (for me at least) would be Devin White, two OL, a pass catching TE, and an interior pass rusher.


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Yep, I'm afraid Burfict is past the point of no return for several reasons. The main one being his own health !

And like you say now is a great time to clean house and start fresh.

(01-15-2019, 03:19 PM)Tiger Teeth Wrote: We should keep James Francis, Reggie Williams and Jim LeClair.

Bergey could be traded but the Bengals should probably keep him. 

(01-19-2019, 11:11 AM)Sled21 Wrote:  He's one of the better linebackers in the game. 

He'd be lucky to be in the top fifty.

(01-15-2019, 02:12 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Oh yes,

I'm 54 and I bet I could go out there right now and put the challenge to Nickerson going sideline to sideline.

P.S. - not really but you know what I mean

54? You're still a kid! You were still in kindergarten when I was in 5th grade!