(01-24-2019, 12:00 PM)HuDey Wrote: Thank you for offering your view of the situation. I agree that failure to rise is a team wide problem and not solely on the shoulders of Marvin and or Dalton. I also agree that more of the blame for this should be on Marvin as he is ultimately responsible for how his players perform. He has a big hand in which players are on the roster and which ones see the field on Sundays.

Having said that, Andy Dalton as a starting QB is in a high profile position of on-field leadership. His job goes beyond just taking snaps and running plays. He has to be a motivator, he has to inspire his teammates, and he also has to lead by example and promote a sense of urgency between the lines. I think that Dalton has a pretty good physical skill set, but his intangible game is sorely lacking. His playing style is a product of Marvin Lewis era coaching, and for these reasons I feel that he also should share a portion of the blame for the failure to rise issue. These reasons are also why I feel that Dalton is the wrong guy to lead this team into a new culture.

Agree with a lot of this, and to be clear, I am all for finding a successor at the QB position.

When I look at Marvin's tenure as a whole, I see a lack of preparation (how many times has it looked like the opponents were in our huddle?), a lack of urgency and fire (how many times has the team come out flat in big games?), I see a lot of getting schooled by playoff caliber opponents, i.e. primetime games (no () needed here), and I see failure to adjust.

When I see all of that, I put it on the staff more than the players.  That's just my opinion.

As for Andy, I think he's got good intangibles, and is limited a tad on some physical traits.  He is good with presnap reads, he's cool and calm in the huddle (see his remarks to Hue in the Seattle game, and what teammates say about him in the huddle), he gets the ball out quickly.  I'm anxious to see him in a different system.  Then, we'll know for sure.  He looked pretty good under Hue's guidance combined with work with Tom House.

(01-24-2019, 11:39 AM)Wyche Wrote: Exactly this.  On all fronts.

Anyone remember the NE game, we gave up a safety, the defense shit the bed, the "on to Cincinnati" game?

21/31 254yds 1/0, 1 rushing TD, 103.4 rating.....but yeah, we got torched 35-17.  Not eye popping, but certainly not the reason we lost.  This is one example.  The Cleveland game was the worst, obviously, but he's played well enough to win several of these primetime affairs since, with a sprinkle here and there of a bad game.

The consistent? Marvin.

I'm with you on Coach Taylor's decision as well.

Exactly !

Before Andy Dalton ever strapped on a Bengals Helmet Marvin had a record of 5-12 against Pittsburgh !

Of course I still blame that record on Dalton.

(01-24-2019, 01:49 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Exactly !

Before Andy Dalton ever strapped on a Bengals Helmet Marvin had a record of 5-12 against Pittsburgh !

Of course I still blame that record on Dalton.

No doubt brother.  For me, it's hard to get a really good read on our talent, aside from the couple of superstars, because of this.

For me, it makes more sense that our coaching was too tight in critical situations, the team rarely played loose, than it does to say we drafted, traded for, and signed a bunch of choke artists for 16 years straight.

(01-24-2019, 01:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: No doubt brother.  For me, it's hard to get a really good read on our talent, aside from the couple of superstars, because of this.

For me, it makes more sense that our coaching was too tight in critical situations, the team rarely played loose, than it does to say we drafted, traded for, and signed a bunch of choke artists for 16 years straight.

Bingo !

I 1,000% believe the only players that have shined under Marvin (to one degree or another) are the ones that would have shined anywhere. Chad, Palmer, TJ, AJ, Geno, Whit, Big Willie, and so on.

Player development and getting the most out of average/good players has been little to nothing during his entire tenure.

(01-24-2019, 01:52 PM)Wyche Wrote: No doubt brother.  For me, it's hard to get a really good read on our talent, aside from the couple of superstars, because of this.

For me, it makes more sense that our coaching was too tight in critical situations, the team rarely played loose, than it does to say we drafted, traded for, and signed a bunch of choke artists for 16 years straight.

Didn't you know, Andy Dalton is the only choke artist to ever wear a Bengals uniform.  In fact, he's such a choke artist that it caused ripples backward in time, causing Marvin's terrible primetime/postseason record and even the Lost Decade.  I've heard it even broke Krumrie's leg, but that's just hearsay.

(01-24-2019, 02:23 PM)Earendil Wrote: Didn't you know, Andy Dalton is the only choke artist to ever wear a Bengals uniform.  In fact, he's such a choke artist that it caused ripples backward in time, causing Marvin's terrible primetime/postseason record and even the Lost Decade.  I've heard it even broke Krumrie's leg, but that's just hearsay.

:andy:

(01-24-2019, 09:47 AM)Wyche Wrote: Until proven otherwise, I'mma put that one on Merv.  For the most part, Andy has played well against Pitt.

I want to see what the new staff can do with these offensive players, including Dalton and also including Ross, a pick I didn't like at #9.

I'm not ready to throw Dalton under the bus. But at the same time I'm unwilling for the team to stay stagnant. They've passed up on better QBs in the draft and you can't do that and improve the position. We expect the team to draft upgrades for some of the positions every year and they've deliberately not tried to upgrade the QB position because Marv doesn't like QB controversies. I believe that mentality will disappear with the new staff.

Now, for this year, I believe QB is not one of the top 3 most pressing needs. We need a right side of the OL, LBers, some TEs and some one has to step up on the WR corp.

(01-24-2019, 02:23 PM)Earendil Wrote: Didn't you know, Andy Dalton is the only choke artist to ever wear a Bengals uniform.  In fact, he's such a choke artist that it caused ripples backward in time, causing Marvin's terrible primetime/postseason record and even the Lost Decade.  I've heard it even broke Krumrie's leg, but that's just hearsay.

The left handed pass that went about a foot and a half from, damn I can never remember his name ? The poster play from the dark decade, like 98 somewhere in there ?

Yep, it's on Dalton

(01-24-2019, 02:31 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I want to see what the new staff can do with these offensive players, including Dalton and also including Ross, a pick I didn't like at #9.

I'm not ready to throw Dalton under the bus. But at the same time I'm unwilling for the team to stay stagnant. They've passed up on better QBs in the draft and you can't do that and improve the position. We expect the team to draft upgrades for some of the positions every year and they've deliberately not tried to upgrade the QB position because Marv doesn't like QB controversies. I believe that mentality will disappear with the new staff.

Now, for this year, I believe QB is not one of the top 3 most pressing needs. We need a right side of the OL, LBers, some TEs and some one has to step up on the WR corp.

Yep, I'm all for moving on from Dalton. It's just that with all the other issues this team has I'm not sure now is the time ?

Having said that if ZT covets QB _____________ in the draft and they go hog wild (for Cincinnati) in free agency and get picks for AD and draft the remaining holes. Hey I'm not gonna cry if Dalton is gone.

But I would like to see what the new coaching staff can do with our current core and a fixed up Oline and LBers.

You can't blame ML's failure for 16 years on AD when they done the best with him, is all I'm saying.

(01-24-2019, 02:31 PM)BengalChris Wrote: I want to see what the new staff can do with these offensive players, including Dalton and also including Ross, a pick I didn't like at #9.

I'm not ready to throw Dalton under the bus. But at the same time I'm unwilling for the team to stay stagnant. They've passed up on better QBs in the draft and you can't do that and improve the position. We expect the team to draft upgrades for some of the positions every year and they've deliberately not tried to upgrade the QB position because Marv doesn't like QB controversies. I believe that mentality will disappear with the new staff.

Now, for this year, I believe QB is not one of the top 3 most pressing needs. We need a right side of the OL, LBers, some TEs and some one has to step up on the WR corp.

Absolutely agree 100% with everything.  I'll tell ya another couple of guys I'm anxious to see with a different staff keen on offense:  Gio, and Erickson.  I see zero reason why Gio isn't a Sproles type of player, and why Erickson can't be utilized more on offense.  A lot of teams use weapons all over the field and on special teams too.  Not Marvin though......

(01-24-2019, 02:31 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: The left handed pass that went about a foot and a half from, damn I can never remember his name ? The poster play from the dark decade, like 98 somewhere in there ?

Yep, it's on Dalton

Frerrotte

(01-24-2019, 01:57 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Bingo !

I 1,000% believe the only players that have shined under Marvin (to one degree or another) are the ones that would have shined anywhere. Chad, Palmer, TJ, AJ, Geno, Whit, Big Willie, and so on.

Player development and getting the most out of average/good players has been little to nothing during his entire tenure.

Reggie Nelson, Deltha O'Neal, and Wallace Gilberry are exceptions to that.

(01-24-2019, 02:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: Frerrotte

Good ol' Gus.  Hey, Mahomes threw one lefty.  Just shows you how far ahead of his time Gus was.  Didn't he also concuss himself head butting the wall in Washington?

(01-24-2019, 02:53 PM)jason Wrote: Reggie Nelson, Deltha O'Neal, and Wallace Gilberry are exceptions to that.

There are exceptions, no doubt. But in the big picture for every success story there are three that have floundered and or been mishandled.

(01-24-2019, 02:46 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: Frerrotte

I remember being excited when they got him and Michael Westbrook... Good times.

(01-24-2019, 03:05 PM)jason Wrote: I remember being excited when they got him and Michael Westbrook... Good times.

Yeah, we got a whole 9 games and 8 receptions out of him.  He was the guy who caught the Hail Mary from Slash at Colorado.

(01-24-2019, 02:55 PM)McC Wrote: Good ol' Gus.  Hey, Mahomes threw one lefty.  Just shows you how far ahead of his time Gus was.  Didn't he also concuss himself head butting the wall in Washington?

I think you may be right on that.....lol.  Anyone remember?

(01-24-2019, 03:10 PM)Wyche Wrote: I think you may be right on that.....lol.  Anyone remember?

I just looked it up.  No concussion, but he did sprain his neck and had to leave the game.  And he has yet to live it down to this day.

(01-24-2019, 02:46 PM)Wyche Wrote: Frerrotte

Yep, that's also because of Dalton's temporal ripples.  Man, Andy has been screwing us over for decades. Sheesh...

Bfine was right all along.

(01-24-2019, 02:45 PM)Wyche Wrote: Absolutely agree 100% with everything.  I'll tell ya another couple of guys I'm anxious to see with a different staff keen on offense:  Gio, and Erickson.  I see zero reason why Gio isn't a Sproles type of player, and why Erickson can't be utilized more on offense.  A lot of teams use weapons all over the field and on special teams too.  Not Marvin though......

Yes, I agree. The team seemed very predictable with Gio in the line up, at least how they'd use Gio when he was out there. He's capable of filling in at WR and I really don't see any reason why we don't see him out wide more often.

I believe the running game will get a boost with Taylor. Seeing a stat line with Mixon ending a game with only 13 carries and over 100 yards and we lose just makes me want to reach in there and rip up their play sheet and hand them a new one. Mixon with less than 20 carries a game is a recipe for losing.

And there's no reason not have Gio and Mixon on the field together more often.

If Ross doesn't show up and improve, and there is that possibility, Erickson should get his playing time. When given the opportunity Erickson caught some key 3rd down conversions while Ross rarely did even with more opportunity.