(01-25-2019, 10:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've never argued that comparing Andy to career back ups makes him look better. But folks can look at any list you can provide and see he's nothing more than an average NFL starting QB.
WTS, nothing wrong with average if your focus is elsewhere. But let's not try to make him more than he is.
I disagree actually looking at statistics and comparing to other quarterbacks is a way to judge a quarterback that's why I believe he is above average
(01-25-2019, 10:45 PM)Essex Johnson Wrote: I disagree actually looking at statistics and comparing to other quarterbacks is a way to judge a quarterback that's why I believe he is above average
Disagree all you want, just don't be surprised if the vast majority that follow football disagree with you. And the stats back it up.
(01-25-2019, 10:22 PM)bfine32 Wrote: I've never argued that comparing Andy to career back ups makes him look better. But folks can look at any list you can provide and see he's nothing more than an average NFL starting QB.
WTS, nothing wrong with average if your focus is elsewhere. But let's not try to make him more than he is.
Guys with 48+ starts are now "career backups". Ok.
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
Average stats, a little above average stats or a little below average stats are not what is important about a QB. What is important is, does he have what it takes to be a QB who leads a team to a championship. Since a championship is the goal, anything less should be considered in need of correction.
It doesn't always take stellar stats to be that QB, but it does take a QB who makes the right calls, right throws, right reads, doesn't fold or cave or implode in those big games that get the team into the SB.
Has Andy Dalton been that QB to this point in time? No. Can he be that QB in the future? Possibly. It will be Taylor's job to root out the mediocreness from this team and its players. There are bigger problems with the team than QB, but the QB does need to improve and it can't be business as usual from that position. He'll get that opportunity with Taylor. Will that opportunity last for 8 years of not making it? Doubtful.
I'm more or less re-phrasing my opening post with this one.
Call Andy "average" all you want. Any team that has an "average" starter is building around him. The only teams gambling draft picks on a QB have either "bad" or "old" starting QBs.
(01-26-2019, 10:54 AM)fredtoast Wrote: Same old same old.
Call Andy "average" all you want. Any team that has an "average" starter is building around him. The only teams gambling draft picks on a QB have either "bad" or "old" starting QBs.
He’s definitely average. And below average under the lights on prime time
(01-26-2019, 12:16 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: He’s definitely average. And below average under the lights on prime time
He started out slow in Prime time games, but over the last 4 years his passer rating in prime time gamesis actually above average. His last two prime time games have produced a 107.7 4 td performance against division champions Ravens and a 95,5 rating against division champions Steelers.
(01-26-2019, 12:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: He started out slow in Prime time games, but over the last 4 years his passer rating in prime time gamesis actually above average. His last two prime time games have produced a 107.7 4 td performance against division champions Ravens and a 95,5 rating against division champions Steelers.
Was the Chiefs game not considered a prime time game. Or did we leave it out for a reason.
(01-26-2019, 02:13 AM)BengalChris Wrote: Average stats, a little above average stats or a little below average stats are not what is important about a QB. What is important is, does he have what it takes to be a QB who leads a team to a championship. Since a championship is the goal, anything less should be considered in need of correction.
It doesn't always take stellar stats to be that QB, but it does take a QB who makes the right calls, right throws, right reads, doesn't fold or cave or implode in those big games that get the team into the SB.
Has Andy Dalton been that QB to this point in time? No. Can he be that QB in the future? Possibly. It will be Taylor's job to root out the mediocreness from this team and its players. There are bigger problems with the team than QB, but the QB does need to improve and it can't be business as usual from that position. He'll get that opportunity with Taylor. Will that opportunity last for 8 years of not making it? Doubtful.
I'm more or less re-phrasing my opening post with this one.
Fair enough. For the record, I'm just fine with Dalton's regular season production. It's the playoffs where we all have a problem with him (and everyone else on the team over the last 7 playoff games). I think it was a Marv problem. Hopefully we find out soon. I'd lay money on it though.
(01-26-2019, 01:38 PM)Socal Bengals fan Wrote: Was the Chiefs game not considered a prime time game. Or did we leave it out for a reason.
Leave in the Chiefs game if you like. Even then - since the 2.0 game - his PT rating is better than his career rating.
Yet the team still has a 4-8-1 record in those games. Hmm... :giggle:
The training, nutrition, medicine, fitness, playbooks and rules evolve. The athlete does not.
(01-26-2019, 02:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fair enough. For the record, I'm just fine with Dalton's regular season production. It's the playoffs where we all have a problem with him (and everyone else on the team over the last 7 playoff games). I think it was a Marv problem. Hopefully we find out soon. I'd lay money on it though.
Leave in the Chiefs game if you like. Even then - since the 2.0 game - his PT rating is better than his career rating.
Yet the team still has a 4-8-1 record in those games. Hmm... :giggle:
Lack of discipline and not adjusting well in those games played a hand in losing as much as Dalton.
When you have your stars like Green dropping TD passes by running before the catch it sure doesn't help.
Everyone ignores how badly both D & O lines got neutralized in most of those playoff games.
Poor tackling, blown coverages, mental mistakes.
I'd chalk Marvin and his coaches(yes even Zimmer)up to failure.
Not making excuses here. Thems facts folks.
Dalton has been all ends of the spectrum IMO. Bad/Meh/Pretty Good(notice I didn't say great)in regular season.
I'd say his play as a whole is average to above average.
Can they do better? Yes if they miraculously hit on a pick or bring in a FA that clicks.
Can they do worse? Very easily.
I'd like to see AD and the rest of the team together under a new coaching system. If only for one season.
They really need to improve the line obviously but I also hope this QB friendly coach can identify his strengths and point out his weaknesses.
This is more than Dalton's self awareness and sole drive to improve himself.
He needs to be pushed/molded/challenged/whatever in a constructive manner from the top down.
Maybe a different group would be better prepared, disciplined, innovative, and not shit the bed collectively if they make it to the playoffs.
(01-26-2019, 03:04 PM)BengalsRocker Wrote: Lack of discipline and not adjusting well in those games played a hand in losing as much as Dalton.
When you have your stars like Green dropping TD passes by running before the catch it sure doesn't help.
Everyone ignores how badly both D & O lines got neutralized in most of those playoff games.
Poor tackling, blown coverages, mental mistakes.
I'd chalk Marvin and his coaches(yes even Zimmer)up to failure.
Not making excuses here. Thems facts folks.
Dalton has been all ends of the spectrum IMO. Bad/Meh/Pretty Good(notice I didn't say great)in regular season.
I'd say his play as a whole is average to above average.
Can they do better? Yes if they miraculously hit on a pick or bring in a FA that clicks.
Can they do worse? Very easily.
I'd like to see AD and the rest of the team together under a new coaching system. If only for one season.
They really need to improve the line obviously but I also hope this QB friendly coach can identify his strengths and point out his weaknesses.
This is more than Dalton's self awareness and sole drive to improve himself.
He needs to be pushed/molded/challenged/whatever in a constructive manner from the top down.
Maybe a different group would be better prepared, disciplined, innovative, and not shit the bed collectively if they make it to the playoffs.
Yep. Playoff games are sixty minutes of gut check. You can't let down, you can't ease up. Marvin's Bengals, at their best, could hang for at least most of a game. How many times did they ever play a sixty minute game?
At their worst, they folded at the first gut check.
The new staff has to have better schemes, better techniques, better preparation, and a helluva lot more mental toughness.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
(01-26-2019, 02:29 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Fair enough. For the record, I'm just fine with Dalton's regular season production. It's the playoffs where we all have a problem with him (and everyone else on the team over the last 7 playoff games). I think it was a Marv problem. Hopefully we find out soon. I'd lay money on it though.
Leave in the Chiefs game if you like. Even then - since the 2.0 game - his PT rating is better than his career rating.
Yet the team still has a 4-8-1 record in those games. Hmm... :giggle:
Absolutely! If regular season Andy were to replace post-season Andy then I'd be very, very happy with him.
We'll see how this season goes. I want to see how the team performs against the Steelers, the Rams, the Seahawks and the Patriots. Those five games, plus any post-season games, will give us a gauge on this team.
Since we want a SB we should compare against the top tier teams. And while the Steelers aren't top tier at the moment, they are a monkey on the Bengals back that has to be removed.
Plus, of course, gotta win own division and play well against the Ravens and the Browns, besides the Steelers.
(01-26-2019, 03:58 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Absolutely! If regular season Andy were to replace post-season Andy then I'd be very, very happy with him.
We'll see how this season goes. I want to see how the team performs against the Steelers, the Rams, the Seahawks and the Patriots. Those five games, plus any post-season games, will give us a gauge on this team.
Since we want a SB we should compare against the top tier teams. And while the Steelers aren't top tier at the moment, they are a monkey on the Bengals back that has to be removed.
Plus, of course, gotta win own division and play well against the Ravens and the Browns, besides the Steelers.
I've always thought they never really believed they were going to win any of those games except '15, when they did believe but were done in by the lack of discipline that so often plagued marv's regime. You can't do many things you can't believe you can do.
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ― Albert Einstein
(01-26-2019, 04:09 PM)McC Wrote: I've always thought they never really believed they were going to win any of those games except '15, when they did believe but were done in by the lack of discipline that so often plagued marv's regime. You can't do many things you can't believe you can do.
Please don't take this personally as I'm directly this next statement squarely at Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown.
If you don't believe you can win, then you lost right there because you had that belief.
If you have someone who believes there are no opportunities in the world for them, then I assure you that that person will be blind to any opportunity present and simply will not see any opportunity there at all.
If a team doesn't believe it can win, then it will not see any way to win, thus it will lose.
(01-26-2019, 04:49 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Please don't take this personally as I'm directly this next statement squarely at Marvin Lewis and Mike Brown.
If you don't believe you can win, then you lost right there because you had that belief.
If you have someone who believes there are no opportunities in the world for them, then I assure you that that person will be blind to any opportunity present and simply will not see any opportunity there at all.
If a team doesn't believe it can win, then it will not see any way to win, thus it will lose.
So true and one of the exact reasons we are better off now regardless.
Atleast now we will have a chance at a lottery ticket. Before, we didn't even believe we could buy one.
(01-26-2019, 04:57 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: So true and one of the exact reasons we are better off now regardless.
Atleast now we will have a chance at a lottery ticket. Before, we didn't even believe we could buy one.
Yep! I'm keeping an open mind to the player personnel moves this off-season as I expect the new coaching staff will get more from these same players. Of course, some players won't de-mediocrize and they'll have to be let go at some point, but I believe most of them will respond positively.
(01-26-2019, 05:10 PM)BengalChris Wrote: Yep! I'm keeping an open mind to the player personnel moves this off-season as I expect the new coaching staff will get more from these same players. Of course, some players won't de-mediocrize and they'll have to be let go at some point, but I believe most of them will respond positively.
This change was needed probably worse than any team needed a change in the NFL.
Who knows how these players respond? It is like being under water for 2 minutes and finally reaching the surface.
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