(09-22-2015, 01:22 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Luck is #2 as he has only won in his career against the AFCS thus far.

Andrew Luck: 4 turnovers, tied for his most in a game in his career Leads NFL in turnovers since start of 2014 pic.twitter.com/Wjfy8vRxaw

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) September 22, 2015

(09-22-2015, 01:23 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: Name a QB that plays good even without good receivers around him not named Aaron Rodgers. There is no QB in the NFL that can do that except one, and he still doesn't have horrible weapons right now either. Brady looked meh when Gronk wasn't around in 2013. Brees looks bad right now. All the good QBs have weapons, so stop trying to act like they don't.

Philip Rivers had a career year when he lost everyone around him and had to throw to no-names a lot of the season.

That's not taking away from any other QB in the league, but that's just why I think Philip Rivers is underrated and on par with, if not better, than some of the other guys that people consider "elite".

Good QBs make good receivers look even better and good receivers make good QBs look even better. It's just the way it goes. You aren't going to find many NFL teams where there's a great QB without at least 1 or 2 receivers that are considered to be pretty good themselves. It's just a chicken or the egg argument at that point. Some will say the WR in question makes the QB better and other people will argue the opposite. It's nearly impossible to come to a conclusion in that type of discussion, people will believe what they want to believe.

As you said, all the good QBs have weapons, at least it's perceived as such. It comes down to whether you think the QB is making the receivers look a little better or vice versa.

Luck's always been a turnover machine. It would be worse if he was in the AFCN. He has elite attributes tho (Dalton doesn't) so that gives him a pass. Much like it did Stafford, Bradford, Cutler (although the national media has finally turned on him) etc for all these years.

(09-22-2015, 09:31 AM)djs7685 Wrote: Philip Rivers had a career year when he lost everyone around him and had to throw to no-names a lot of the season.

What year did Rivers lose everyone around him? He normally has at least 2 good receivers around him. I do think Rivers is one of the best QB s out there though. I have always rated him in the top 5 or at least very close.

(09-22-2015, 09:37 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: What year did Rivers lose everyone around him? He normally has at least 2 good receivers around him. I do think Rivers is one of the best QB s out there though. I have always rated him in the top 5 or at least very close.

I only ask because Rivers normally has had people like Gates, and Jackson. Then other people like Malcolm Floyd who's IMO better than Sanu by a decent amount.

(09-22-2015, 09:37 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: What year did Rivers lose everyone around him? He normally has at least 2 good receivers around him. I do think Rivers is one of the best QB s out there though. I have always rated him in the top 5 or at least very close.

2010.

I'm not saying that he didn't have anyone to throw to the entire year, but I'd put it on par with what the Bengals had to deal with last year. A couple guys missed significant time, and there were others in and out of the lineup through the year and even Rivers' better weapons were obviously hurting (much like A.J. still looked hurt toward the end of last season).

Rivers threw for 4,700+ yards, completed 66% of his passes, and had a 30/13 TD/INT ratio despite all of the injury problems. I can't remember ever seeing another QB put up a 100+ passer rating with weapons on par with what Rivers had to deal with in 2010. No receiver topped 782 yards on the team due to the injuries piling up.

Vincent Jackson barely played at all, Gates and Floyd missed significant snaps, and the guys that came in to clean up were Randy McMichael, Craig Davis, Patrick Crayton, Seyi Ajirotutu, and Kelley Washington. They had a good run game that year, but Rivers still played very, very well even when he was throwing the ball to some less than exciting receivers.

We can sit here and nitpick whose injuries were a bigger deal or whatever, but all that I'm saying is that I was VERY impressed with Philip Rivers' 2010, and if Andy put up those numbers given a similar situation, we'd all be petitioning to have statues built of him both outside and inside the stadium.

(09-22-2015, 10:02 AM)djs7685 Wrote: 2010.

I'm not saying that he didn't have anyone to throw to the entire year, but I'd put it on par with what the Bengals had to deal with last year. A couple guys missed significant time, and there were others in and out of the lineup through the year and even Rivers' better weapons were obviously hurting (much like A.J. still looked hurt toward the end of last season).

Rivers threw for 4,700+ yards, completed 66% of his passes, and had a 30/13 TD/INT ratio despite all of the injury problems. I can't remember ever seeing another QB put up a 100+ passer rating with weapons on par with what Rivers had to deal with in 2010. No receiver topped 782 yards on the team due to the injuries piling up.

Vincent Jackson barely played at all, Gates and Floyd missed significant snaps, and the guys that came in to clean up were Randy McMichael, Craig Davis, Patrick Crayton, Seyi Ajirotutu, and Kelley Washington. They had a good run game that year, but Rivers still played very, very well even when he was throwing the ball to some less than exciting receivers.

We can sit here and nitpick whose injuries were a bigger deal or whatever, but all that I'm saying is that I was VERY impressed with Philip Rivers' 2010, and if Andy put up those numbers given a similar situation, we'd all be petitioning to have statues built of him both outside and inside the stadium.

I have always thought that Rivers was an elite QB. My point still stands though. There's only a few outliers, but QBs need solid receivers to be able to play well. Even elite QBs don't play well w/o solid weapons (obviously there is a outlier or two). Especially if it's early in the QBs career like it was with Dalton. Plus it was Daltons first year in Hues system.

People just need to cut Dalton some slack. He hasn't had the easiest start of his career if you think about it. He was put on a team that their only real weapon was a rookie WR. He was put in a division that had the #1 defense for multiple years, and the Ravens/Browns always have great defenses. I do think all of those hardships that Dalton had to endure is going to payoff in the long run though. He will be used to facing good defenses, and he will be used to playing with subpar talent (now that he has legit weapons it will make everything easier). I think everyone will recognize how good Dalton is this year.

(09-22-2015, 10:38 AM)Brownshoe Wrote: I have always thought that Rivers was an elite QB. My point still stands though. There's only a few outliers, but QBs need solid receivers to be able to play well. Even elite QBs don't play well w/o solid weapons (obviously there is a outlier or two). Especially if it's early in the QBs career like it was with Dalton. Plus it was Daltons first year in Hues system.

People just need to cut Dalton some slack. He hasn't had the easiest start of his career if you think about it. He was put on a team that their only real weapon was a rookie WR. He was put in a division that had the #1 defense for multiple years, and the Ravens/Browns always have great defenses. I do think all of those hardships that Dalton had to endure is going to payoff in the long run though. He will be used to facing good defenses, and he will be used to playing with subpar talent (now that he has legit weapons it will make everything easier). I think everyone will recognize how good Dalton is this year.

So far, so good.  Gotta get to that place where playing like this is second nature.  Did a nice job overcoming adversity Sunday.  Actually, the whole team overcame the turnovers.

Everybody has raised their game.  When the people around him are playing well and the OC is calling a great game, it makes it so much easier on the QB. 

Hopefully, everybody will stay on this roll.  This team's best (which we may not have seen yet) is really good.

(09-22-2015, 10:02 AM)djs7685 Wrote: 2010.

I'm not saying that he didn't have anyone to throw to the entire year, but I'd put it on par with what the Bengals had to deal with last year. A couple guys missed significant time, and there were others in and out of the lineup through the year and even Rivers' better weapons were obviously hurting (much like A.J. still looked hurt toward the end of last season).

Rivers threw for 4,700+ yards, completed 66% of his passes, and had a 30/13 TD/INT ratio despite all of the injury problems. I can't remember ever seeing another QB put up a 100+ passer rating with weapons on par with what Rivers had to deal with in 2010. No receiver topped 782 yards on the team due to the injuries piling up.

Vincent Jackson barely played at all, Gates and Floyd missed significant snaps, and the guys that came in to clean up were Randy McMichael, Craig Davis, Patrick Crayton, Seyi Ajirotutu, and Kelley Washington. They had a good run game that year, but Rivers still played very, very well even when he was throwing the ball to some less than exciting receivers.

We can sit here and nitpick whose injuries were a bigger deal or whatever, but all that I'm saying is that I was VERY impressed with Philip Rivers' 2010, and if Andy put up those numbers given a similar situation, we'd all be petitioning to have statues built of him both outside and inside the stadium.

Yeah this did happen (VJax held out that year), but there's a reason you have to go back to 2010 to find an example. QB's usually suffer when their receivers are decimated by injury and/or FA losses. Flacco and Brady in 2013 both come to mind as recent examples of QB performance taking a dip due to losses at receiver. Eli struggled that year as well after losing his #1 and dealing with some injuries at receiver. 

All 3 of those players rebounded in a big way after their receivers improved, either through FA, draft or getting guys back. Dalton looks like he's about to have a rebound season as well.

(09-22-2015, 01:32 AM)WhoDeyWho Wrote:

Andrew Luck: 4 turnovers, tied for his most in a game in his career

Leads NFL in turnovers since start of 2014 pic.twitter.com/Wjfy8vRxaw

— ESPN Stats & Info (@ESPNStatsInfo) September 22, 2015

Luck's turnover problems have also really shown up in the playoffs. You could argue that Luck's game against the Bengals was the only truly impressive performance he's had in the postseason. It was his only playoff game without turnover(s).

His other games?

29/45 (64%) 443 yards, 4 TD's, 3 INT's (98.7 rating) - Just about killed his team's chances with 3 INT's before a miracle comeback against a KC defense missing several key players.
27/43 (63%) 265 yards, 2 TD's, 2 INT's (76.2)
28/54 (52%) 288 yards, 0 TD's, 1 INT (59.8)
20/41 (49%) 331 yards, 2 TD's, 4 INT's (53.0)
12/33 (36%) 126 yards, 0 TD's, 2 INT's (23.0)

In his 5 games against non-Bengal opponents, he's posted a Dalton-like 64.1 rating with 12 INT's. Too bad Dalton can't play the Bengals defense in the playoffs.

(09-22-2015, 07:28 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Luck's turnover problems have also really shown up in the playoffs. You could argue that Luck's game against the Bengals was the only truly impressive performance he's had in the postseason. It was his only playoff game without turnover(s).

His other games?

29/45 (64%) 443 yards, 4 TD's, 3 INT's (98.7 rating) - Just about killed his team's chances with 3 INT's before a miracle comeback against a KC defense missing several key players.
27/43 (63%) 265 yards, 2 TD's, 2 INT's (76.2)
28/54 (52%) 288 yards, 0 TD's, 1 INT (59.8)
20/41 (49%) 331 yards, 2 TD's, 4 INT's (53.0)
12/33 (36%) 126 yards, 0 TD's, 2 INT's (23.0)

In his 5 games against non-Bengal opponents, he's posted a Dalton-like 64.1 rating with 12 INT's. Too bad Dalton can't play the Bengals defense in the playoffs.

The Colts are a very overrated team. They are 10-12 outside of their division since 2013. On the other hand the Bengals are a very underrated team. They are 17-4-1 outside their division since 2013.

The AFCS is such a bad division. The Texans don't have a good secondary anymore. Their defense is all about their front 7. The Titans are on the rise, but have been jokes for a while. The Jags are just a joke.

(09-22-2015, 06:43 PM)Shake n Blake Wrote: Yeah this did happen (VJax held out that year), but there's a reason you have to go back to 2010 to find an example. QB's usually suffer when their receivers are decimated by injury and/or FA losses. Flacco and Brady in 2013 both come to mind as recent examples of QB performance taking a dip due to losses at receiver. Eli struggled that year as well after losing his #1 and dealing with some injuries at receiver. 

All 3 of those players rebounded in a big way after their receivers improved, either through FA, draft or getting guys back. Dalton looks like he's about to have a rebound season as well.

Oh for sure, I pretty much agree with what Brownshoe was saying, but he asked what I meant about Rivers so I went into detail about it. It was more about just how awesome Philip Rivers can be than anything else.

Every great QB needs some good receivers and even the best receivers still need someone to get the ball to them all over the field. There are exceptions at times but generally you need both to get somewhere in the playoffs and even TO the playoffs.

People's heads are going to explode if Andy ends the year top 5 in passer rating though. I almost want to say that I'm more excited to see people lose their shit over that than anything else. I'm hoping he does it for the reactions alone.

(09-22-2015, 09:18 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Oh for sure, I pretty much agree with what Brownshoe was saying, but he asked what I meant about Rivers so I went into detail about it. It was more about just how awesome Philip Rivers can be than anything else.

Every great QB needs some good receivers and even the best receivers still need someone to get the ball to them all over the field. There are exceptions at times but generally you need both to get somewhere in the playoffs and even TO the playoffs.

People's heads are going to explode if Andy ends the year top 5 in passer rating though. I almost want to say that I'm more excited to see people lose their shit over that than anything else. I'm hoping he does it for the reactions alone.

If Dalton has great stats like I think he's going to get at the end of the year. I'll tell you one thing... You will hear a lot of "I told you so" from me, and a lot of people who have backed Dalton.

[quote='Brownshoe' pid='67462' dateline='1442963322']

The Colts are a very overrated team. They are 10-12 outside of their division since 2013. On the other hand the Bengals are a very underrated team. They are 17-4-1 outside their division since 2013.

Good as that sounds and as true as that may be, there isn't a soul that believes that, not even you.
The Bengals are cursed I tell ya.

(09-22-2015, 09:48 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: If Dalton has great stats like I think he's going to get at the end of the year. I'll tell you one thing... You will hear a lot of "I told you so" from me, and a lot of people who have backed Dalton.

What if he doesn't? What will we hear then?

(09-22-2015, 01:15 AM)Luvnit2 Wrote: Did you watch the game yesterday?

I saw holding penalties, offensive pass interference and 2 lost fumbles by Hill.

I would say the defense played the pass very well, the run not so well, Nugent missed a chip shot field goal, but Huber was great.

I think AD did overcome a lot of our mistakes yesterday.

Nope, don't get Bengals games down here unless it's prime time. I do listen to them on the radio though.

Yes he did and that's very promising. But it's only been two games in a row, kind of like the start of last year.

We know Dalton can be a very good QB, but he needs to show us that he's raised his floor. He's creeping up my QB list. Got him in the 12-15 range instead of the average range (15-18 out of 32).

I really do believe this the best Bengals team in 25 years may be even further back than that.

(09-22-2015, 09:52 PM)Fresno B Wrote: Good as that sounds and as true as that may be, there isn't a soul that believes that, not even you.
The Bengals are cursed I tell ya.

sorry I like going by facts

(09-22-2015, 09:53 PM)Fresno B Wrote: What if he doesn't? What will we hear then?

[/quote]

He will

(09-22-2015, 09:18 PM)djs7685 Wrote: People's heads are going to explode if Andy ends the year top 5 in passer rating though. I almost want to say that I'm more excited to see people lose their shit over that than anything else. I'm hoping he does it for the reactions alone.

Lol no doubt. Some are so dug in on this that I'd be very curious to see some of the reactions. I'm pretty sure the biggest haters would just heap praise on all the weapons around Dalton or give him some backhanded compliments like "he was handed the keys to a Porsche didn't wreck it".

Even if Dalton does have a fantastic season, I think there's a few people he just won't be able to win over. Just as there are a few who would probably never want to move on even if he threw 25 picks this year.

This is also the first season we have actually had and used a legitimate pass catching TE that lets us attack the seams. Lest we forget last season we not only were missing a lot of our receivers but also TEs as well.

I have two goals for Andy this year. I do not think they are unreasonable considering the talent that surrounds him and they would represent a step forward in his progress if he can have a season where he does both:

1. A TD:INT ratio greater than 2.

2. An INT% less than 3%.