(02-19-2019, 11:32 AM)Wyche Wrote: Very good point.  I feel a bit anxious about the whole mess myself.  That said, I'm not going to spread misinformation about the ordeal, or link to articles touting half truths as facts to make it seem worse than it really is.

The defense was the worst in the NFL last season.  They rarely stopped anyone from scoring....lmao.  I mean, it can't get a helluva lot worse folks.  I guess people forget all of the 4th quarter comebacks our offense had to pull off, scoring nearly 40 points a game early on.

If I'm an established DC somewhere with a mid pack to top 10 unit, making good coin, I'll be damned if I'd take this position for less than double what I am currently making with the same length of contract to boot.  It's just too risky not to, and the Bengals are not going to pay that.  

The Bengals and Taylor had a plan, they just didn't realize how bad their shitty players on defense make this job look.  I realize this unit is truly talented, but they sure as hell didn't play like it last season, and even their former HC said as much in his recent interview.  These guys brought this upon themselves with a half ass effort last season.

I don't think our defense is such a lost cause.  Look how much better Marv had them playing.  Fix the LB situation and everything changes.

Any coach scared off by not having a perfect situation is not a coach worth having.

(02-19-2019, 11:25 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: This was probably my biggest fear as well. 

It is likely the biggest reason.  I mean, one candidate came right out and said it......what more evidence do you need?  People can blame the FO, and new HC all they want, the reality is, this falls squarely on the shoulders of a historically underperforming unit.  They were piss poor last season, and this is the result.  I'd venture Marvin would have had trouble finding a new coordinator after that dogshit performance.

(02-19-2019, 11:36 AM)McC Wrote: I don't think our defense is such a lost cause.  Look how much better Marv had them playing.  Fix the LB situation and everything changes.

Any coach scared off by not having a perfect situation is not a coach worth having.

It's not scared off McC.....it's taking a calculated risk.  I've done the same thing in my career.

Here's the scenario....you're making 2 million a year at job you have security with, and complete with upper echelon performance.  Would you trade that in for less pay, no security, and piss poor performance?  I'd have a hard time doing that, UNLESS you doubled my salary.

I mean, it's just not that lucrative of an offer.  You couple that with a historically mediocre to bad franchise, an unknown at HC, it's just risky business.  A risk that has to have a comparative reward. 

I took that risk, and it worked out, but the pitfall was that the company was in such bad shape, we were on a C.O.D. only basis with many of our vendors.  Had it not panned out, I could have been jobless rather quickly with a bridge burnt by going to work for the competition.

You should know, I'm not a part of the sky is falling brigade, but looking at this objectively, this is not that great of an opportunity for anything less than top dollar for an extended amount of contract.

I have to wonder about the credibility of a lot of it because it says Del Rio rejected us which is differing from reports leading up to their call and post call that it was Taylor who didn't think he was a good fit.

Also, quick question for everyone. Who at this time last year knew who Matt Eberflus was (Heck who knows who he is now lol)? He was the Cowboys LB coach two years ago and the Colts DC last year who turned their horrible defense around. It's easy to panic but every great DC was an unheard of position coach at some point in their career. I really have no issue with whoever he brings in because to be frank a lot of people know football, to me it's who are the minds that Taylor relates to who view the bigger picture philosophy as he does.

(02-19-2019, 11:36 AM)McC Wrote: I don't think our defense is such a lost cause.  Look how much better Marv had them playing.  Fix the LB situation and everything changes.

Any coach scared off by not having a perfect situation is not a coach worth having.

Also worth noting......even Marvin said their effort was lackluster.  That's saying something....

(02-19-2019, 11:46 AM)Au165 Wrote: I have to wonder about the credibility of a lot of it because it says Del Rio rejected us which is differing from reports leading up to their call and post call that it was Taylor who didn't think he was a good fit.

The age of social media......you don't have to be right, you just have to be first. :andy:

(02-19-2019, 11:32 AM)Wyche Wrote: The Bengals and Taylor had a plan, they just didn't realize how bad their shitty players on defense make this job look.  I realize this unit is truly talented, but they sure as hell didn't play like it last season, and even their former HC said as much in his recent interview.  These guys brought this upon themselves with a half ass effort last season.

This.

The tackling last year was atrocious.  Doesn't do any good to have the best DC with the best plan to get the players in position to stop a play if they don't put the effort into tackling.

Don't know what needs to be done about that, but scheme was not our only problem on defense last year.

(02-19-2019, 11:32 AM)Wyche Wrote: Very good point.  I feel a bit anxious about the whole mess myself.  That said, I'm not going to spread misinformation about the ordeal, or link to articles touting half truths as facts to make it seem worse than it really is.

The defense was the worst in the NFL last season.  They rarely stopped anyone from scoring....lmao.  I mean, it can't get a helluva lot worse folks.  I guess people forget all of the 4th quarter comebacks our offense had to pull off, scoring nearly 40 points a game early on.

If I'm an established DC somewhere with a mid pack to top 10 unit, making good coin, I'll be damned if I'd take this position for less than double what I am currently making with the same length of contract to boot.  It's just too risky not to, and the Bengals are not going to pay that.  

The Bengals and Taylor had a plan, they just didn't realize how bad their shitty players on defense make this job look.  I realize this unit is truly talented, but they sure as hell didn't play like it last season, and even their former HC said as much in his recent interview.  These guys brought this upon themselves with a half ass effort last season.

I'm not saying that is right, but there absolutely has to be a reason why there's no DC -- and not because of lack of effort trying to find one. This simply has to be a less than desirable place to come to with the current roster, which is just a kick in the stomach to a happy start of the new year. Just wish we could have nice things... 

(02-19-2019, 12:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

The tackling last year was atrocious.  Doesn't do any good to have the best DC with the best plan to get the players in position to stop a play if they don't put the effort into tackling.

Don't know what needs to be done about that, but scheme was not our only problem on defense last year.

Agree fred.....it was very ugly.

I don't have the answer either.....but maybe being spurned over and over gives them a little extra push to better themselves.  It was pretty eye opening to me when Marvin said the first thing he delved into when he took over as DC was the lack of effort.  Obviously Marvin was always close to the vest and would never say that as HC, but the fact that he laid it out there in his interview made it ironclad.

(02-19-2019, 11:32 AM)Wyche Wrote: Very good point.  I feel a bit anxious about the whole mess myself.  That said, I'm not going to spread misinformation about the ordeal, or link to articles touting half truths as facts to make it seem worse than it really is.

The defense was the worst in the NFL last season.  They rarely stopped anyone from scoring....lmao.  I mean, it can't get a helluva lot worse folks.  I guess people forget all of the 4th quarter comebacks our offense had to pull off, scoring nearly 40 points a game early on.

If I'm an established DC somewhere with a mid pack to top 10 unit, making good coin, I'll be damned if I'd take this position for less than double what I am currently making with the same length of contract to boot.  It's just too risky not to, and the Bengals are not going to pay that.  

The Bengals and Taylor had a plan, they just didn't realize how bad their shitty players on defense make this job look.  I realize this unit is truly talented, but they sure as hell didn't play like it last season, and even their former HC said as much in his recent interview.  These guys brought this upon themselves with a half ass effort last season.

Can't argue with any of this. We have 1 elite player on and a couple of really good players on D and the rest are ehh.  This is where I think a young defensive coach wanting to become a DC can make hay. You take a unit that was dead last year and move them up to 18, that is saying something. It why I think a younger, hungrier guy makes sense.

(02-19-2019, 11:38 AM)Wyche Wrote: It is likely the biggest reason.  I mean, one candidate came right out and said it......what more evidence do you need?  People can blame the FO, and new HC all they want, the reality is, this falls squarely on the shoulders of a historically underperforming unit.  They were piss poor last season, and this is the result.  I'd venture Marvin would have had trouble finding a new coordinator after that dogshit performance.

There is a difference though between saying...the players are crap and saying you don't have the players necessary to run my scheme successfully.  Zampese, for example, was a coordinator who wouldn't change his scheme despite the inability of his players to succeed in that scheme.  Grantham was unwilling to make adjustments to the personnel. At least that was his excuse.   Bellichik teams have been successful on the defensive side because they play to the personnel.   

(02-19-2019, 12:28 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Can't argue with any of this. We have 1 elite player on and a couple of really good players on D and the rest are ehh.  This is where I think a young defensive coach wanting to become a DC can make hay. You take a unit that was dead last year and move them up to 18, that is saying something. It why I think a younger, hungrier guy makes sense.

Good point 'wedge.....just gotta find him now.

(02-19-2019, 12:29 PM)pally Wrote: There is a difference though between saying...the players are crap and saying you don't have the players necessary to run my scheme successfully.  Zampese, for example, was a coordinator who wouldn't change his scheme despite the inability of his players to succeed in that scheme.  Grantham was unwilling to make adjustments to the personnel. At least that was his excuse.   Bellichik teams have been successful on the defensive side because they play to the personnel.   

Correct.  However, effort was lacking too.  Missed tackles, etc.  Early scheme was questionable, effort and acumen of players was as well.

(02-19-2019, 11:47 AM)Wyche Wrote: Also worth noting......even Marvin said their effort was lackluster.  That's saying something....

Merv was doing commentary Sunday night for the AAF, for the Atlanta Legends and San Diego Fleet, my favorite team in the AAF, and there was a play that he commented on. It was 3rd and 12 and ATL completed a pass for the 1st down. Merv said, "You can't just sit back and let them complete those passes".  I was dumbfounded......

I think a lot of this is on the FO.  If you're taking over a bottom basement defense, you're going to want a say in the draft and the ability to spend in FA.  History would tell you that's a long shot.  

Even if it's a decent promotion and career move, who's going to leave their cushy SEC job with a $65M football facility for an organization that gives their new HC this office chair?  

 

Lot of people laughed at that statement previously, but if a company has a reputation for being cheap, crap like this goes a long way to reinforce that perception.  You're not going to convince top tier talent to make a lateral move by presenting yourself like a 2nd tier organization.  You can overpay to bring someone into a shitty situation with menial resources and a backwater corporate culture of nepotism over success, but that would require you to SPEND AND NOT BE CHEAP *****.  

(02-19-2019, 10:44 AM)Wyche Wrote:   I'll be honest, if it were me, I'd go to Del Rio's house with my hat in my hand and blank check, and try to iron this out.  

Damn straight.  Although I have a feeling the 'not a good fit' line from ZT was a cover for the FO saying 'too much mulla.'  

Literally only hope we have now is ZT finding a super green DC who just so happens to be a defensive wiz kid.  Unfortunately its going to be really tough for that person to do the heavy lifting of day to day coaching and managing this D's attitude.  

This offense better be damn good on every level.

This has been in the works for a couple days, after the Bengals' first 2 choices -- Dennis Allen and Todd Grantham -- got raises to stay where they were. https://t.co/M8Q1ZuQLVZ

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) February 19, 2019

Wait we weren't spurned by the whole league as lepers? 

(02-19-2019, 01:52 PM)Au165 Wrote:

This has been in the works for a couple days, after the Bengals' first 2 choices -- Dennis Allen and Todd Grantham -- got raises to stay where they were. https://t.co/M8Q1ZuQLVZ

— Albert Breer (@AlbertBreer) February 19, 2019

Wait we weren't spurned by the whole league as lepers? 

It isnt the lepracy that makes you loose digits.  Its the lack of care to bacteria infection due to diminished feeling in your extremities.  

Pretty good analogy really. 

(02-19-2019, 12:09 PM)fredtoast Wrote: This.

The tackling last year was atrocious.  Doesn't do any good to have the best DC with the best plan to get the players in position to stop a play if they don't put the effort into tackling.

Don't know what needs to be done about that, but scheme was not our only problem on defense last year.

Just too be clear, I don't think we lack talent.  I think we have several good players on defense.

I would think that lack of effort could be fixed easier than lack of ability.

(02-19-2019, 02:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Just too be clear, I don't think we lack talent.  I think we have several good players on defense.

I would think that lack of effort could be fixed easier than lack of ability.

You would think....and I said that this defense wasn't lacking in talent across the board.

Linebacker is an outright liability at this point though....and there is the fact that the two best down linemen are in their 30s.

(02-19-2019, 04:41 PM)Wyche Wrote: You would think....and I said that this defense wasn't lacking in talent across the board.

Linebacker is an outright liability at this point though....and there is the fact that the two best down linemen are in their 30s.

Hopefully, some of last year's LB's will be moving on to their next profession.  Same with some of the OLine. 

If ever there was proof that one position group can damn a whole unit to failure, we witnessed it on both sides of the ball last year.

(02-19-2019, 04:48 PM)McC Wrote: Hopefully, some of last year's LB's will be moving on to their next profession.  Same with some of the OLine. 

If ever there was proof that one position group can damn a whole unit to failure, we witnessed it on both sides of the ball last year.

Amen.