(02-19-2019, 06:10 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then your argument makes no sense.  People who do not believe in God don't go around committing bad acts that they have to "pay for" anymore than people who do believe in god.

You're assuming things. 

(02-19-2019, 06:09 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because they don't seek the proper help and they'd rather kill themself than face life.

Once again, empty rhetoric.

If you honestly believe that the only people with mental problems who kill themselves are the ones who did not get treatment then you are way more clueless than I ever thought.

I have a list of documentaries about vets with PTSD that you need to watch.

(02-19-2019, 06:13 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: You're assuming things. 

No I am not.  An OVERWHELMING majority of prisoners in the United States believe in god.  Less that 1 percent claim to be atheists.

(02-19-2019, 06:09 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because they don't seek the proper help and they'd rather kill themself than face life.

I have been trying to stay out of this after my original post because I don't want to get into one of these back and forth threads you so often seem to be involved in.  That said, you really should educate yourself on the subject a bit more before making such sweeping generalizations.  You are very much entitled to your belief that all people that commit suicide made a deliberate choice rather than "face life".  That doesn't mean you are right.   

I watched a talk on this very subject some time ago.  One of the points brought up was when Robin Williams ended his life.  The media stated that he committed suicide and by definition he did.  However in the talk about this, it was better stated that he lost his battle with depression.  From what I have read he was undergoing treatment at the time and had been for many years as well as treatment for other conditions. 

As I stated earlier it is a very complex subject.  For example when it comes to suicide and mental illness it is not as simple as saying, "Well they didn't try hard enough. They just refused to face life."

In other ways I sort of get it.  You went through a tragic event that almost killed you and changed your life forever.  I commend you for working through that struggle and also for working to help others through your presentations.  You have had a lot to get through and worked hard to deal with it.  From what I know of your story that has been no small task by any means.  It really is a great story of a person overcoming adversity to do something with their life.  However, that doesn't give you carte blanche to judge others who may have lost their personal battles.

Edit: Given your posts above you seem to be a person of faith, as am I, so you might find this article interesting as it pertains to my mention of Robin Williams, depression and the devastating effects it can have on someone.

Depression and Suicide: A Catholic Perspective

(02-19-2019, 06:14 PM)fredtoast Wrote: If you honestly believe that the only people with mental problems who kill themselves are the ones who did not get treatment then you are way more clueless than I ever thought.

I have a list of documentaries about vets with PTSD that you need to watch.

Once again, you keep going back to vets with PTSD when I have made it perfectly clear that there is a difference between a mental illness like PTSD and just killing yourself because you don't want to face life's struggles.

(02-19-2019, 06:09 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because they don't seek the proper help and they'd rather kill themself than face life.

Once again, empty rhetoric.

(02-19-2019, 11:24 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Once again, you keep going back to vets with PTSD when I have made it perfectly clear that there is a difference between a mental illness like PTSD and just killing yourself because you don't want to face life's struggles.

Good grief I can't believe I am still involved in this.  But here it goes.  Fred asked you, "Then why do so many people with clinical depression or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder kill themselves? "  Your response is the quote above.  So you flat out said people with mental illness or PTSD that committed suicide didn't seek the proper help and would "rather kill themself than face life."   I mean it is quoted above a post made by you and could not be more clear.  I get it, you and Fred like to argue and probably have a beef with each other and will argue every chance you get.  That said, I encourage you to learn more about mental illness and suicide and the complexity of suicide as a whole.
 

(02-19-2019, 05:28 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Then why do so many people with clinical depression or Post Traumatic Stress Disorder kill themselves?

(02-19-2019, 06:09 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Because they don't seek the proper help and they'd rather kill themself than face life.

(02-19-2019, 11:24 PM)BFritz21 Wrote: Once again, you keep going back to vets with PTSD when I have made it perfectly clear that there is a difference between a mental illness like PTSD and just killing yourself because you don't want to face life's struggles.

Not wasting my time anymore, but here is my suggestion for how to handle your problem.  Say whatever you want and then if they try to criticize you over it just deny you ever said it.

(02-19-2019, 10:59 AM)fredtoast Wrote: It would be for me.  I know they would be sad without me, but if they would be better off in the long run then I would make the sacrifice.   This is especially true with old people who are sick or feeble and no they are not going to get any better.  They know they are not going to live forever, and if they are a burden to theiir family then they may end their life to relieve loved ones of a burden.

I guess some people are just bothered more by being a burden to others.  I know it would drive me crazy.  I would feel terrible every day knowing I was holding back my loved ones.  I would not be ableto stand it.

I kind of compare it to a person who is diagnosed with stage 3 or 4 cancer and doesn't have adequate insurance, savings, or ability to make money to pay for treatment.  Do they go down the path of incurring massive debt and leaving the bills to their loved ones after death (along with funeral expenses)?  Do they just accept their fate and die when the disease takes them?

I actually had this discussion with my dad when he was diagnosed.  He was ready to die after the first round or 2 of chemo.  He said it every time I saw him.  Instead, he endured a year of surgeries and near death trips to the hospital and time spent in treatment facilities.  All of this was due to the birth of my son the same year, and him wanting gut it out to be around him.  I sometimes feel guilty for encouraging him to go though it.  Fortunately, my family had the means to cover the expenses without significant damage to my mom's future in retirement.  That's not always the case for people in that scenario. 

I'd have to say that if the choice what clear, given what I know about the process and of treatment and the uncertainty/excruciating pain involved, I may just choose to die.  This is especially true if my receiving treatment meant my wife may lose the house or life savings due to a treatment process carried out in vain.  

(02-19-2019, 06:15 PM)fredtoast Wrote: No I am not.  An OVERWHELMING majority of prisoners in the United States believe in god.  Less that 1 percent claim to be atheists.

Well heck then... Why don't more people decide to commit crimes to go to prison to be with all those good christians in there?  Could it possible be because admitting to atheism in prison and many other places is a risky proposition and can get you subjected to a lot of violence?
I'm a self admitted atheist and I know that there are certain places I never bring the subject up. I seldom engage in discussions with self proclaimed Christians simply because I don't particularly enjoy getting beat up over my beliefs or lack therein. I've been told that I don't believe in ANYTHING since I'm an atheist and I'm doomed to burn in hell forever and ever and ever and ever and.... Yeah right..
Go ahead Brad, go ahead and place your brand on me and tell me I'm doomed to fire and brimstone for all eternity, but I know one thing, I try to not be overly judgemental towards people for not being able to deal with overwhelming stress. Is being judgemental the single greatest hallmark of Christianity we should all strive for? If justmentalism is the benchmark of living a good life I'll be content with being a bad human being. Reading your nonsense reminds me how glad I am that my kids are already fully grown and no longer subjected to the whims of silly nonsense kids have to listen to daily in schools.