I was talking about the weather change, and how it correlates to his struggles in my belief. Overall I think he'd be a better dome, or cali qb. Something, because he really does digress as the season changes.

I was trying to find weather information for the games, but I stumbled across all of his career splits and figured I'd share some information from them....

Andy has played 3 games inside a dome in his career. In those games, his team is 3-0 and he has gone 55/82 for 67% completions, 771 yards, with 6 TDs and only 1 INT.

Of teams outside of the division that Andy has faced more than once, his best performances have come from Oakland, New England, and Indianapolis.

His career statline against Miami is miserable and his numbers against Jacksonville should be better.

Andy's career passer rating in September is a whopping 15 points higher than it is in November. His career passer rating in October is almost identical to December.

He has thrown the least INTs in September. 20 each for October and November. His yards per carry rushing the ball and rushing TD totals are highest in December.

Andy has been historically awful on Thursday night games. Monday aren't much better but posted a 92.7 passer rating in his sole Saturday game (also a Bengals win).

His passer rating against the NFC is over 15 points higher than the AFC. He has thrown more than 2 TDs for every INT against NFC opponents. He has absolutely dominated the NFC North, East, and South. Against those 3 divisions, the team is a combined 9-2-1 and he's thrown 27 TDs to 10 INT against them. In the AFC, he has dominated the West and struggled in the North.

(09-24-2015, 09:59 AM)Rhinocero23 Wrote: Better than .500 not .500 or better.

Still even if it was better than .500 the loss total would be more for .500 or better, if not the very least the same. Your stats are wrong.

(09-24-2015, 02:12 PM)jj22 Wrote: October I thought. But I could be wrong. 2013 maybe? But I thought he won the player of the month award in October. Def not 2011 and 2012 (that late run was all defense). Def not 2014.

Yeah. Oct '13 but he has had good cold weather games. '11 vs Cleveland, '13 vs Indy come to mind. There really hasn't been too many cold weather games. Finale in '12 against the Ravens was bitterly cold but he only played a partial game. 

(09-24-2015, 03:28 AM)West Union KennyG Wrote: If anything, I have a tendency to get more dramatic when the conversation is largely one sided in a way I see as mostly unfair.  
Still, I'll stand by my top 10 statement, and others can call me what they want.  I know what I see in this kid, and I find him impressive - he's a winner.  Take his total wins and compare them to other QBS in the league.  I know it's a team sport, but as the point person for the offense, that's a lot of wins.  Some might even say, top 10 caliber.  So there.

He's been playing like a top 10 QB, and he if he had healthy weapons last year he would be in the top then too. I had him in the top 10 in 2013 also.

Cold weather but windy weather too I'm thinking about. I have nothing to back me up tho, just a thought as to why he starts so strong, but can't seem to maintain it late in the season.

(09-24-2015, 12:51 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Question about the bold. What compelling arguments do the "Andy is top 10" crowd even have? I don't understand that whatsoever. I can understand when people think he's close, hell, I'm an "Andy hater" and I have him at 12-13 and that's not even me considering anything in the 2015 so far! Back to the point though..

Flacco and Eli don't have the best regular season stats, but they had great postseason runs. Ryan, Rivers, and Romo may not have the playoff appearances/wins/performances but they've been clearly better in the regular season. Wilson doesn't have the inflated volume of other top QBs, but has been clearly better than most in almost every possible way otherwise. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger aren't even questionable. That's 11 guys right there that are just not debatable that are better than Andy. Even if you find a way to nitpick 1 guy like Eli or Flacco, he's still outside the top 10. That's not even bringing up the fact that there are other guys in the middle tier that some random people will throw in the top 10 like your occasional Stafford sighting.

The only way to "see why some believe he's there" is if you ignore anything that actually matters when it comes to evaluating a QB. Let's be honest, you're just trying to be nice to this guy because you like him as a poster. There is NO legitimate reason to believe he's a top 10 QB, and he hasn't been at any point in his career. No one outside of a few whacked out Bengals homers have believed so, and that will hopefully end in 2015. I think he can get there after a great season this year, but let's just not sugarcoat things for the sake of a poster you used to like and let's call it as it is in reality.

7th in yards in 2013, 3rd in TDs in 2013, and he did much better than Flacco or Eli that year. He was close to the top 10 in passer rating (efficiency) If you took out people like McCown who didn't play a lot. In 2014 he didn't have good stats at all, but he literally had one of the worst weapons in the league due to injuries. This year he's easily playing like he's in the top 10.

And let's not forget that Flacco didn't play well in the playoffs until his 5th year as a QB.

(09-24-2015, 02:44 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: 7th in yards in 2013, 3rd in TDs in 2013, and he did much better than Flacco or Eli that year. He was close to the top 10 in passer rating (efficiency) If you took out people like McCown who didn't play a lot. In 2014 he didn't have good stats at all, but he literally had one of the worst weapons in the league due to injuries. This year he's easily playing like he's in the top 10.

And let's not forget that Flacco didn't play well in the playoffs until his 5th year as a QB.

In QB rankings you don't compare their first X years though. You compare them as they're in the league together, that's the entire point of rankings. It doesn't matter when Flacco or Eli went on their runs, the fact that they did puts them ahead of guys like Andy and Stafford. It's not like Joe and Eli have been completely miserable in the regular season either, both have had some fine seasons and some good ones as well.

Andy had high volume totals 1 time in his career, and that does not make a top 10 QB. With that logic, you should think Matthew Stafford is God's gift to the universe.

Andy has been playing great thus far in 2015, so at the end of the year we can have this discussion again and see if this season helps him out in the rankings.

(09-24-2015, 02:48 PM)djs7685 Wrote: In QB rankings you don't compare their first X years though. You compare them as they're in the league together, that's the entire point of rankings. It doesn't matter when Flacco or Eli went on their runs, the fact that they did puts them ahead of guys like Andy and Stafford. It's not like Joe and Eli have been completely miserable in the regular season either, both have had some fine seasons and some good ones as well.

Andy had high volume totals 1 time in his career, and that does not make a top 10 QB. With that logic, you should think Matthew Stafford is God's gift to the universe.

Andy has been playing great thus far in 2015, so at the end of the year we can have this discussion again and see if this season helps him out in the rankings.

Rankings should be what the QBs are doing that year. Not what they did in the past. Joe Flacco, and Eli manning played like garbage in 2013.

Flacco        = 19 TD 22 INTs
E. Manning = 18 TD 27 INTs

Just because they had a great playoff run a few times doesn't mean that they're better. How do you know that they didn't just go on a run like Dalton did in October?  Plus both of their teams played great around them in the playoffs, something that can't be said about the Bengals.

Oh... and don't you think it's funny Dalton always plays great when he actually has offensive weapons around him? His first 2 years bottom half of the league in offensive weapons. 4th year bottom half of the league in offensive weapons, but the years he played great he had weapons... Hmmm

(09-24-2015, 02:25 PM)djs7685 Wrote: I was trying to find weather information for the games, but I stumbled across all of his career splits and figured I'd share some information from them....

Andy has played 3 games inside a dome in his career. In those games, his team is 3-0 and he has gone 55/82 for 67% completions, 771 yards, with 6 TDs and only 1 INT.

Of teams outside of the division that Andy has faced more than once, his best performances have come from Oakland, New England, and Indianapolis.

His career statline against Miami is miserable and his numbers against Jacksonville should be better.

Andy's career passer rating in September is a whopping 15 points higher than it is in November. His career passer rating in October is almost identical to December.

He has thrown the least INTs in September. 20 each for October and November. His yards per carry rushing the ball and rushing TD totals are highest in December.

Andy has been historically awful on Thursday night games. Monday aren't much better but posted a 92.7 passer rating in his sole Saturday game (also a Bengals win).

His passer rating against the NFC is over 15 points higher than the AFC. He has thrown more than 2 TDs for every INT against NFC opponents. He has absolutely dominated the NFC North, East, and South. Against those 3 divisions, the team is a combined 9-2-1 and he's thrown 27 TDs to 10 INT against them. In the AFC, he has dominated the West and struggled in the North.

So no real weather conditions seem to have an impact.

(09-24-2015, 02:53 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Rankings should be what the QBs are doing that year. Not what they did in the past. Joe Flacco, and Eli manning played like garbage in 2013.

Flacco        = 19 TD 22 INTs
E. Manning = 18 TD 27 INTs

Just because they had a great playoff run a few times doesn't mean that they're better. How do you know that they didn't just go on a run like Dalton did in October?  Plus both of their teams played great around them in the playoffs, something that can't be said about the Bengals.

They had a great playoff run a few times  and that absolutely means they're better. It's not "just" the playoff runs, they've been average to good in a lot of regular seasons as well. I've clearly stated they both had stinkers in the past, but that doesn't erase their more recent success and their SB runs either. You're just being intentionally defiant because of your Andy love. When Andy goes on that run in January instead of October, let me know and I'll adjust accordingly. The rest of the world is waiting too.

I don't care if the Ravens and Giants defense pitched shutouts every game and the run game went for 500 yards per game, Eli and Flacco still both played VERY well, so stop diminishing that by how good the team played.

Fine, I'll use your logic, the Bengals have been playing great as a team this year, so let's take away from Andy for that. Whatever you say. Or are we not going to play that game anymore? Let me know.

(09-24-2015, 02:53 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Oh... and don't you think it's funny Dalton always plays great when he actually has offensive weapons around him? His first 2 years bottom half of the league in offensive weapons. 4th year bottom half of the league in offensive weapons, but the years he played great he had weapons... Hmmm

So your point is that Andy can't look like a good QB unless he's loaded with talent around him?

Great argument for someone trying to say that Andy is really good  

(09-24-2015, 02:58 PM)djs7685 Wrote: So your point is that Andy can't look like a good QB unless he's loaded with talent around him?

Great argument for someone trying to say that Andy is really good  

Well as my point earlier in the thread. QBs don't do well unless they have talent around them. There has been what 1 QB to do that in the last 5 years?

(09-24-2015, 02:59 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Well as my point earlier in the thread. QBs don't do well unless they have talent around them. There has been what 1 QB to do that in the last 5 years?

There's a difference between having no talent around them and having a plethora of talent around them.

Andy has looked good to great when we have a top of the line defense, best offensive line in the league, good run game, and many weapons for him to throw at.

Most great QBs have looked very good without having to have ALL of that, just some of it. Andy seems to need all of it to really succeed, and you've admitted it many times in the past without realizing what you were saying. You cry for everything to get better except for the QB and you always say that everything sucks and needs to be better around him, why not cry for the QB to get better too?

(09-24-2015, 03:02 PM)djs7685 Wrote: There's a difference between having no talent around them and having a plethora of talent around them.

Andy has looked good to great when we have a top of the line defense, best offensive line in the league, good run game, and many weapons for him to throw at.

Most great QBs have looked very good without having to have ALL of that, just some of it. Andy seems to need all of it to really succeed, and you've admitted it many times in the past without realizing what you were saying. You cry for everything to get better except for the QB and you always say that everything sucks and needs to be better around him, why not cry for the QB to get better too?

Dalton doesn't need all of that. He like most other QB in the league just needs a good line, and some good receivers. Dalton didn't have a great run game in 2013 and still was worthy of a top 10 spot. In the past we have had a very very bad running game (other than 2014, and this year), and poor receivers outside of Green (other than this year and 2013). When Dalton has had some solid receivers he's done great. He doesn't need everything.

(09-24-2015, 03:05 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Dalton doesn't need all of that. He like most other QB in the league just needs a good line, and some good receivers. Dalton didn't have a great run game in 2013 and still was worthy of a top 10 spot. In the past we have had a very very bad running game (other than 2014, and this year), and poor receivers outside of Green (other than this year and 2013). When Dalton has had some solid receivers he's done great. He doesn't need everything.

Completely disagree that he was worthy of a top 10 spot in 2013 and almost everybody would disagree with you. 99.999999% of people outside this forum and 98% of people inside this forum have never considered Andy Dalton a top 10 QB at any point in his career. That's just the way it is, but I'm not even getting into these same old arguments about why he wasn't considered one.

How about this, let's see what Andy does in 2015 and talk about it. I'm about done arguing about his past, I did that enough in 2011, 2012, then in 2013, and again in 2014. It's always arguing about his past, but football season is actually here so let's talk about the present.

Andy looks sharp, huh? I really thought Hue was a bad fit for him but maybe I was wrong about that.

(09-24-2015, 03:11 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Completely disagree that he was worthy of a top 10 spot in 2013 and almost everybody would disagree with you. 99.999999% of people outside this forum and 98% of people inside this forum have never considered Andy Dalton a top 10 QB at any point in his career. That's just the way it is, but I'm not even getting into these same old arguments about why he wasn't considered one.

How about this, let's see what Andy does in 2015 and talk about it. I'm about done arguing about his past, I did that enough in 2011, 2012, then in 2013, and again in 2014. It's always arguing about his past, but football season is actually here so let's talk about the present.

Andy looks sharp, huh? I really thought Hue was a bad fit for him but maybe I was wrong about that.

Well people who disagree are wrong. He was 3rd in TDs and 7th in yards. If you take out people like McCown out of the top 10 passer rating Dalton would be 10th or 11th in efficiency. The only knock Dalton had in 2013 was his INTs, and if he had lower INTs he would no question be in top 10 very easily.

(09-24-2015, 03:13 PM)Brownshoe Wrote: Well people who disagree are wrong. He was 3rd in TDs and 7th in yards. If you take out people like McCown out of the top 10 passer rating Dalton would be 10th or 11th in efficiency. The only knock Dalton had in 2013 was his INTs, and if he had lower INTs he would no question be in top 10 very easily.

Yes, everybody except you and the other Andy loving extremists are wrong, you're the only one that knows how to properly evaluate the QB position. Nobody else has any experience in that field that has said that Andy isn't top 10.

Don't you find it strange that you're one of the only people that argue that side....ever, anywhere?

(09-24-2015, 03:17 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Yes, everybody except you and the other Andy loving extremists are wrong, you're the only one that knows how to properly evaluate the QB position. Nobody else has any experience in that field that has said that Andy isn't top 10.

Don't you find it strange that you're one of the only people that argue that side....ever, anywhere?

Nope. Only a few smart people knew the earth was a sphere a long time ago, and the general consensus was the earth was flat.

(09-24-2015, 12:51 PM)djs7685 Wrote: Question about the bold. What compelling arguments do the "Andy is top 10" crowd even have? I don't understand that whatsoever. I can understand when people think he's close, hell, I'm an "Andy hater" and I have him at 12-13 and that's not even me considering anything in the 2015 so far! Back to the point though..

Flacco and Eli don't have the best regular season stats, but they had great postseason runs. Ryan, Rivers, and Romo may not have the playoff appearances/wins/performances but they've been clearly better in the regular season. Wilson doesn't have the inflated volume of other top QBs, but has been clearly better than most in almost every possible way otherwise. Brady, Manning, Brees, Rodgers, Roethlisberger aren't even questionable. That's 11 guys right there that are just not debatable that are better than Andy. Even if you find a way to nitpick 1 guy like Eli or Flacco, he's still outside the top 10. That's not even bringing up the fact that there are other guys in the middle tier that some random people will throw in the top 10 like your occasional Stafford sighting.

The only way to "see why some believe he's there" is if you ignore anything that actually matters when it comes to evaluating a QB. Let's be honest, you're just trying to be nice to this guy because you like him as a poster. There is NO legitimate reason to believe he's a top 10 QB, and he hasn't been at any point in his career. No one outside of a few whacked out Bengals homers have believed so, and that will hopefully end in 2015. I think he can get there after a great season this year, but let's just not sugarcoat things for the sake of a poster you used to like and let's call it as it is in reality.

I don't believe there's a compelling argument that Dalton is a top 10 QB yet. That's why I used the "or close to it" qualifier.

All I was saying there is that I can see why someone would think that. If you just look at his record as a starting QB, some of the franchise records he's set, going to a couple Pro Bowls, winning a POM award (essentially an MVP of the month), etc.

Now don't get it twisted, I'm not saying they're RIGHT to believe he's top 10, and I could sit here and rip apart all the reasons I just listed. I'm just saying I get why some would think he's close even if I disagree. I guess saying I understand why some think he's already there would be a stretch.

Btw, please stop bringing up who you think I like as a poster. It doesn't influence my opinion, and fwiw I like you as a poster - when you're not in full attack mode.