(03-04-2019, 11:08 AM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: I actually did watch a lot of Rosen last year. I had NFL Sunday Ticket and was unfortunate enough to have had David Johnson on my money-league FFL team. So I've seen plenty of the guy.

I don't like him and I don't want him here. Not for anything over a third rounder. He's got a good enough arm, not great - but good. He's slow on all his reads, which is youth (for the most part) and he's not mobile. I never once saw the guy make a throw that got my attention. Not even once.

Furthermore, his personality and his highly questionable leadership skills are well documented. He comes from a rich family, has an attitude of entitlement and is very outspoken. He was not well-liked by his mates at UCLA. No idea how well-received he was in Arizona, but this is not a guy who is going to endear himself to the hard-working, Pete Rose Charlie Hustle-loving midwesterners in Porkopolis.

And it can't be overstated - Kingsbury is being brought in for his offensive acumen and ostensibly his ability spot QB talent and develop it. If he's already cutting bait with Rosen, that should tell you volumes more than any of my opinions should.

Stay away.

Go back and watch his college games.  You'll see the arm talent and you'll see the talent overall.

The bolded statement couldn't be more false.  IF they were looking to draft Haskins, Jones or Lock, I would agree with you 100%.  But the fact that they are looking at a guy like Murray tells me that they don't want the traditional drop back passer.  They want an elite athlete who can also throw the ball.  Rosen (along with the rest of those QBs don't fit that mold)

I think someone else pointed out that the Patriots sending their #32 overall pick to the Cardinals for Rosen could make sense. If the guy is a 1st round talent on a rookie deal, he could play a big part in the whole "new HC, rookie QB, active in free agency" template we seem to think we are following.

Having a decent QB on his rookie deal is a major part of the quick-rebuilds we've been seeing.

(02-28-2019, 06:02 PM)NKURyan Wrote: You think the Cardinals are going to be able to get a first rounder for him? Because I can't see it happening, and it's the same thought process I had when the "Bengals are shopping John Ross" rumor was out there - what value do they have, really?

If the cost truly is a first rounder then yeah, I'd pass. But lower than that? I'm intrigued.

The Cards will likely get a late 1st round pick or, at worst, early second for Rosen. A team like the Pats, Raiders, or Skins will swoop in. Rosen wasn’t great last year, but the o line was horrible and several skill players missed time. A recipe for a bad year.

(03-04-2019, 01:14 PM)t3r3e3 Wrote: The Cards will likely get a late 1st round pick or, at worst, early second for Rosen.  A team like the Pats, Raiders, or Skins will swoop in.  Rosen wasn’t great last year, but the o line was horrible and several skill players missed time.  A recipe for a bad year.

I hear ya.  I'm not 100% sold on Rosen being a super great QB, if the Cardinals are motivated sellers then a smart team will buy low-ish on Rosen and use him, or eventually move him.

I think Derek Carr is another QB who teams may try to trade for. He was pretty good some years, then bad last year for the tanking Raiders.

Would you rather have Josh Rosen who could be your future or hold onto that 3rd rounder where there might be a Sam Hubbard waiting but you end up selecting a Will Clarke or Paul Dawson

The reward is too much to not consider it.

Everyone keeps saying you can get him for a 3rd, no one says you can get him for a 3rd only that is what people are saying he is worth. They spent a 1st,3rd,5th to get him. Taking only a 3rd back after all of that is probably grounds to fire the GM (although he should have been anyways based on other things). I don't believe they will draft Murray without getting a 1st, or top 5 2nd, for Rosen.

Watch the Raiders with 24/27, Chargers 28, Patriots 32, or Raiders again at 35. I think the dark horse here is the Redskins with their 2nd,3rd and future 3rd.

(03-04-2019, 01:35 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: Would you rather have Josh Rosen who could be your future or hold onto that 3rd rounder where there might be a Sam Hubbard waiting but you end up selecting a Will Clarke or Paul Dawson

The reward is too much to not consider it.

I'd take Rosen for a 3rd in a second IF IF IF I trusted the Bengals to invest the money saved on not paying a vet QB in free agency.  Getting a 1st round talent QB with 4 years(?) left on his rookie deal in here with a new and young offensive minded HC is the blueprint for NFL success (at the moment) provided you actually spend the money saved on the QB on filling existing holes.

I'd give that a shot.  

(03-04-2019, 01:35 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: Would you rather have Josh Rosen who could be your future or hold onto that 3rd rounder where there might be a Sam Hubbard waiting but you end up selecting a Will Clarke or Paul Dawson

The reward is too much to not consider it.

Assuming you could get Rosen for a 3rd Round pick...you do that immediately.

For a 1st or 2nd Round pick it's a bit more difficult to evaluate. And some of the evaluation depends on your current QB situation.

(03-04-2019, 01:43 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Assuming you could get Rosen for a 3rd Round pick...you do that immediately.

For a 1st or 2nd Round pick it's a bit more difficult to evaluate. And some of the evaluation depends on your current QB situation.

Getting him for a 1st is pretty much a tit-for-tat sort of thing.  I guess we have the luxury of seeing him at the NFL level (with a talent-deprived team), but that's not worth a 1st rounder relative to his 2018 draft value, is it?  Getting him for a late 1st, a 2nd or later would come off as more of a shrewd investment, I'd say.

A 3rd is a no-brainier, yes.  I don't see us being in a very good spot to grab him...our 1st is too high, and we still have the whole "mystery of our 8 year vet QB" looming.  That probably sounds anti-Dalton, but who knows.  Carson Palmer managed to recapture his 2005 form he had spent a decade chasing when he got a better coaching staff, so maybe 2015 Dalton finally comes back while he is in stripes.  

(03-04-2019, 01:39 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'd take Rosen for a 3rd in a second IF IF IF I trusted the Bengals to invest the money saved on not paying a vet QB in free agency.  Getting a 1st round talent QB with 4 years(?) left on his rookie deal in here with a new and young offensive minded HC is the blueprint for NFL success (at the moment) provided you actually spend the money saved on the QB on filling existing holes.

I'd give that a shot.  

Considering that our coach came from a team that did exactly what you just described, it's hard to imagine that ZT wouldn't push for it and get what he wants. One would think the Bengals will, but should we expect them to do it? That's the million dollar question when it comes to moves like this.

(03-04-2019, 01:52 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: Considering that our coach came from a team that did exactly what you just described, it's hard to imagine that ZT wouldn't push for it and get what he wants. One would think the Bengals will, but should we expect them to do it? That's the million dollar question when it comes to moves like this.

I do think they Taylor will bring in a QB at some point too.

It makes sense to do it this year, but it also doesn't make sense because of the huge list of needs we have and some like RT look likely they can only be filled through the draft. (There aren't a lot of good tackles in free agency.)

(03-04-2019, 01:52 PM)Whodey614 Wrote: Considering that our coach came from a team that did exactly what you just described, it's hard to imagine that ZT wouldn't push for it and get what he wants. One would think the Bengals will, but should we expect them to do it? That's the million dollar question when it comes to moves like this.

Yeah, I'm sure I sound like a broken record (geez, that statement is archaic now that I think of it), but if we are going all-in on the trendy rebuild model we need to do the rookie-deal QB thing, too.  The Bears, Rams, Eagles, and Chiefs did it, while the Colts and Chargers rolled with HOF-caliber QBs.  The Dolphins got a young, offensive-minded HC and then stuck him with Ryan Tannehill and Jay Cutler because they wanted to see if those faded QBs could get back to top 10 form with a new and innovative system.

Sticking with Dalton isn't going "all-in" on the trend.  That may be for the best, but it is a very different approach than we may THINK we are taking.  Time will tell.

(03-04-2019, 01:54 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I do think they Taylor will bring in a QB at some point too.

I can't see Taylor and Dalton both being here for long.  That's just the business of the NFL. I also don't have much faith Mike Brown (or whomever we think is in charge) will be able to get a great value for Dalton, either. Prove me wrong!

(03-04-2019, 01:56 PM)Nately120 Wrote: Yeah, I'm sure I sound like a broken record (geez, that statement is archaic now that I think of it), but if we are going all-in on the trendy rebuild model we need to do the rookie-deal QB thing, too.  The Bears, Rams, Eagles, and Chiefs did it, while the Colts and Chargers rolled with HOF-caliber QBs.  The Dolphins got a young, offensive-minded HC and then stuck him with Ryan Tannehill and Jay Cutler because they wanted to see if those faded QBs could get back to top 10 form with a new and innovative system.

Sticking with Dalton isn't going "all-in" on the trend.  That may be for the best, but it is a very different approach than we may THINK we are taking.  Time will tell.

It's a tough call. IF they feel the team has talent that was mismanaged...they may keep Dalton and ride that out.

If they feel that Dalton just isn't a playoff winner, then that's a problem that they need to address at some point. But, maybe not now as we're not a playoff team yet.

(03-04-2019, 02:00 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: It's a tough call. IF they feel the team has talent that was mismanaged...they may keep Dalton and ride that out.

If they feel that Dalton just isn't a playoff winner, then that's a problem that they need to address at some point. But, maybe not now as we're not a playoff team yet.

I wouldn't bet my left nut that Dalton can't succeed with ZT and company.  I'm just saying there is a trend in the recent NFL that new coaches either draft new QBs or they roll with vets that are in place and those vets are Luck, Rivers, Tannehill, Cutler, and Dalton.  I think that covers them all...EDIT I guess Eli Manning and the Giants fit in there, too...not a ringing endorsement, though.

At least things are interesting now, and that's the main thing.

(03-04-2019, 02:02 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I wouldn't bet my left nut that Dalton can't succeed with ZT and company.  I'm just saying there is a trend in the recent NFL that new coaches either draft new QBs or they roll with vets that are in place and those vets are Luck, Rivers, Tannehill, Cutler, and Dalton.  I think that covers them all...EDIT I guess Eli Manning and the Giants fit in there, too...not a ringing endorsement, though.

At least things are interesting now, and that's the main thing.

Getting a QB on a rookie deal can be great for cap purposes.

(03-04-2019, 02:06 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Getting a QB on a rookie deal can be great for cap purposes.

Right-o, and unless you have a HOF-level vet QB under center it seems to be a big part of the trendy new rebuild we are after.  Part of me thinks we should just roll with Dalton, because I'm not sure we can get trade value for him.  Mike Brown has been offered what...a 1st and two 2nds for two QBs who were of zero value to us and he only pulled the trigger on one.

Even when Hue Jackson is making insanely lopsided offers to Mike Brown, he only has a 50% success rate.  I just assume if Washington asked about Dalton Mike would ask for at least a 1st and then "hardball" himself out of a deal.

(03-04-2019, 01:03 PM)Hammerstripes Wrote: Go back and watch his college games.  You'll see the arm talent and you'll see the talent overall.

The bolded statement couldn't be more false.  IF they were looking to draft Haskins, Jones or Lock, I would agree with you 100%.  But the fact that they are looking at a guy like Murray tells me that they don't want the traditional drop back passer.  They want an elite athlete who can also throw the ball.  Rosen (along with the rest of those QBs don't fit that mold)

I've seen his college games. Well, not all of them, but more than enough to have an opinion.

You may have a bit of a point in the second portion of your post, but it's still very telling that they're going to jettison this guy on the 2nd year of a rookie deal. Kingsbury's offenses in college didn't always feature elite athletes. Mahomes is really the only guy who was. Most of his qbs were pretty average athletes who had average to good arms. I don't think Kingsbury is planning to go all BAL/Lamar Jackson. He just seems to really like Murray and always has. His athleticism is a nice bonus, but it's his arm and intangibles they like. 

(03-04-2019, 02:19 PM)RunKijanaRun Wrote: I've seen his college games. Well, not all of them, but more than enough to have an opinion.

You may have a bit of a point in the second portion of your post, but it's still very telling that they're going to jettison this guy on the 2nd year of a rookie deal. Kingsbury's offenses in college didn't always feature elite athletes. Mahomes is really the only guy who was. Most of his qbs were pretty average athletes who had average to good arms. I don't think Kingsbury is planning to go all BAL/Lamar Jackson. He just seems to really like Murray and always has. His athleticism is a nice bonus, but it's his arm and intangibles they like. 

I hear ya, but it's also possible that they are making a mistake by tossing Rosen aside and some team can capitalize on that mistake.  Or, maybe it just comes down to Rosen being a good QB, but there only being room for a single QB on an NFL field at any given time.  

(03-04-2019, 01:52 PM)Whodey614 Wrote:  it's hard to imagine that ZT wouldn't push for it and get what he wants. 

ZT does not want another QB.