He is my problem with the Bengals offseason, they brought back known mediocre players at the risk of trying to actually upgrade.

Option A:
RT Bobby Hart: 3 years $16 to 21 million. We'll call it $18 million as he will hit some of his incentives. So $6 million a year. He graded out at 56.2 or the #69 Tackle.

G John Miller: 3 years, $16.5 million. So $5.5 million a year. He's generally been up and down through his career. Last year, he was good in run blocking and poor in pass protection. 64.3 PFF, #25 Guard.

There is a pretty sizeable risk to Miller. He struggled in a zone blocking scheme and his pass protection was actually worse than Redmond last year. He is a good run blocker though.

That's $11.5 million between those 2 players.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a position other than Tackle.



Option B:
Guard Rodger Saffold - 4 years $44 million. We'll simplify that to $11 million a year. Graded out at 72.8 which was the #9 Guard.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a Tackle.

Sign Andre Smith as a backup Tackle.

This costs probably $2 million or so more than Option B, but you get an elite Guard like Saffold with way less risk than Miller. Starting a drafted Tackle is a bit of a risk, but Bobby Hart has been in the league for 4 years and he's mediocre. One of the worst starting Tackles in the league. Chance are a drafted Tackle won't be worse...and could be better.

What do you think? Also, do you have any other Options?

(03-19-2019, 10:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He is my problem with the Bengals offseason, they brought back known mediocre players at the risk of trying to actually upgrade.

Option A:
RT Bobby Hart: 3 years $16 to 21 million. We'll call it $18 million as he will hit some of his incentives. So $6 million a year. He graded out at 56.2 or the #69 Tackle.

G John Miller: 3 years, $16.5 million. So $5.5 million a year. He's generally been up and down through his career. Last year, he was good in run blocking and poor in pass protection. 64.3 PFF, #25 Guard.

There is a pretty sizeable risk to Miller. He struggled in a zone blocking scheme and his pass protection was actually worse than Redmond last year. He is a good run blocker though.

That's $11.5 million between those 2 players.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a position other than Tackle.



Option B:
Guard Rodger Saffold - 4 years $44 million. We'll simplify that to $11 million a year. Graded out at 72.8 which was the #9 Guard.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a Tackle.

Sign Andre Smith as a backup Tackle.

This costs probably $2 million or so more than Option B, but you get an elite Guard like Saffold with way less risk than Miller. Starting a drafted Tackle is a bit of a risk, but Bobby Hart has been in the league for 4 years and he's mediocre. One of the worst starting Tackles in the league. Chance are a drafted Tackle won't be worse...and could be better.

What do you think? Also, do you have any other Options?

A couple of issues with Saffold. First, he turns 31 before the season starts.  Second, he plays LG and would presumably move to RG here. He will get a ton of guaranteed money with that kind of a deal and if he plays worse than expected due to age and/or the position change, his contract will be tough to get out from under.  

The other thing with option B is that if Andre is the only RT on the roster, you have to draft an OT at #11.  This is a strong T class at the top.  When you see what average--mediocre T's are getting in FA, teams are going to be jumping on T's in the draft to save cap dollars in the future.  

(03-19-2019, 11:25 AM)Whatever Wrote: A couple of issues with Saffold. First, he turns 31 before the season starts.  Second, he plays LG and would presumably move to RG here. He will get a ton of guaranteed money with that kind of a deal and if he plays worse than expected due to age and/or the position change, his contract will be tough to get out from under.  

The other thing with option B is that if Andre is the only RT on the roster, you have to draft an OT at #11.  This is a strong T class at the top.  When you see what average--mediocre T's are getting in FA, teams are going to be jumping on T's in the draft to save cap dollars in the future.  

What's wrong with drafting a T at 11?

Get a solid Tackle and solid Guard vs a Bad Tackle and Mediocre to Average Guard?

Even if you don't like Saffold, then pick another free agent for Option B. The point is you have the chance to get 1 Good player vs 2 mediocre to average players.

My take on these signing by the Bengals is to NOT let the signings dictate how they Draft.

If the Bengals decide Pre-draft that they will not take an Offensive Lineman in rounds 1 or 2 because they just signed Hart & Miller then that is a potential mistake.

They need to allow Drafts to come to them.

Say LB Devin White, TE TJ Hockenson, Corner Greedy Williams and many of the top pass rushers are all gone before they pick. It may end up being that say the Top Offensive Tackle prospect is sitting there at #11. Would the Bengals just pass on taking him because we have Hart signed for 3 years ?

To me, they need to remain open minded at virtually all positions in a Draft.

Don't let potential Greatness or an Upgrade over what we already have signed slip by in a Draft because they want to fill a hole.

Look closely at all options and take nothing off the table until you actually make the pick in each round.

(03-19-2019, 10:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He is my problem with the Bengals offseason, they brought back known mediocre players at the risk of trying to actually upgrade.

Option A:
RT Bobby Hart: 3 years $16 to 21 million. We'll call it $18 million as he will hit some of his incentives. So $6 million a year. He graded out at 56.2 or the #69 Tackle.

G John Miller: 3 years, $16.5 million. So $5.5 million a year. He's generally been up and down through his career. Last year, he was good in run blocking and poor in pass protection. 64.3 PFF, #25 Guard.

There is a pretty sizeable risk to Miller. He struggled in a zone blocking scheme and his pass protection was actually worse than Redmond last year. He is a good run blocker though.

That's $11.5 million between those 2 players.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a position other than Tackle.



Option B:
Guard Rodger Saffold - 4 years $44 million. We'll simplify that to $11 million a year. Graded out at 72.8 which was the #9 Guard.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a Tackle.

Sign Andre Smith as a backup Tackle.

This costs probably $2 million or so more than Option B, but you get an elite Guard like Saffold with way less risk than Miller. Starting a drafted Tackle is a bit of a risk, but Bobby Hart has been in the league for 4 years and he's mediocre. One of the worst starting Tackles in the league. Chance are a drafted Tackle won't be worse...and could be better.

What do you think? Also, do you have any other Options?

One thing not factored in is the age of Saffold and Smith vs Miller and Hart. The Bengals targeted younger guys for their rebuild. Hart, Miller, and Brown are all in their mid-20's. Safford and Smith are in their 30's.

FWIW, I would have gone Option B.

(03-19-2019, 12:08 PM)ochocincos Wrote: One thing not factored in is the age of Saffold and Smith vs Miller and Hart. The Bengals targeted younger guys for their rebuild. Hart, Miller, and Brown are all in their mid-20's. Safford and Smith are in their 30's.

FWIW, I would have gone Option B.

I just wonder how Taylor play into that stuff. He knows what Saffold is and if he didn't make the move, why? Maybe it was FO, or maybe it truly was his plan is to go long haul so he wanted younger options. Is interesting though in this specific case because of Taylor's familiarity with him.

(03-19-2019, 11:43 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What's wrong with drafting a T at 11?

Get a solid Tackle and solid Guard vs a Bad Tackle and Mediocre to Average Guard?

Even if you don't like Saffold, then pick another free agent for Option B. The point is you have the chance to get 1 Good player vs 2 mediocre to average players.

You don't even know if you can get your #1 T at #11.  We could possibly be looking at our 3rd or even 4th best T prospect there.  Do you really want to be in a position where you have to pass on a Devin White, Clellen Farrell, Quentin Williams, TJ Hockenson, Kyler Murray, or Dwayne Haskins that falls to you because you HAVE to take Jawaan Taylor?

To be clear, I have no issue taking a T at #11 as long as it's a reasonable value.  However, setting ourselves up for "T or bust in the 1st" isn't a good way to do business.

(03-19-2019, 11:43 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: What's wrong with drafting a T at 11?

Get a solid Tackle and solid Guard vs a Bad Tackle and Mediocre to Average Guard?

Even if you don't like Saffold, then pick another free agent for Option B. The point is you have the chance to get 1 Good player vs 2 mediocre to average players.

While I like the idea of getting a RT in round 1, I don't like the idea of reaching for a tackle at 11. You have to wonder if the Bengals don't like tackles that'll be available at 11 or think one they do like will last until then. I'm curious to see how the mock drafts start looking in the upcoming weeks. 

The line by default should be improved from last year. Price should be much improved and we going from a poor performing guard to at least an average guard (who's still young and has played at a high level at times). 

(03-19-2019, 12:11 PM)Au165 Wrote: I just wonder how Taylor play into that stuff. He knows what Saffold is and if he didn't make the move, why? Maybe it was FO, or maybe it truly was his plan is to go long haul so he wanted younger options. Is interesting though in this specific case because of Taylor's familiarity with him.

Is Hart really a good option in a rebuild even though he is young as he is also bad. Chances are he's never going to be good. Can he get to average? Maybe.

Saffold for 4 years is pretty good.  I doubt Hart is still here in 4 years.

(03-19-2019, 12:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: You don't even know if you can get your #1 T at #11.  We could possibly be looking at our 3rd or even 4th best T prospect there.  Do you really want to be in a position where you have to pass on a Devin White, Clellen Farrell, Quentin Williams, TJ Hockenson, Kyler Murray, or Dwayne Haskins that falls to you because you HAVE to take Jawaan Taylor?

To be clear, I have no issue taking a T at #11 as long as it's a reasonable value.  However, setting ourselves up for "T or bust in the 1st" isn't a good way to do business.

You could go with White at 11 and then use Smith at RT for a year and draft a Tackle in Round 2 to develop.

Once again, I go back to the fact that Hart is a bad tackle. If he were even average, this is a different discussion...but he's one of the worst starting tackles in the league. He gave up over 10 sacks. I saw only 3 or 4 tackles did that.

(03-19-2019, 12:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: You don't even know if you can get your #1 T at #11.  We could possibly be looking at our 3rd or even 4th best T prospect there.  Do you really want to be in a position where you have to pass on a Devin White, Clellen Farrell, Quentin Williams, TJ Hockenson, Kyler Murray, or Dwayne Haskins that falls to you because you HAVE to take Jawaan Taylor?

To be clear, I have no issue taking a T at #11 as long as it's a reasonable value.  However, setting ourselves up for "T or bust in the 1st" isn't a good way to do business.

Then take a tackle in the 2nd round, or the 3rd round.

Bobby Hart was a 7th round pick, and he's been terrible for 4 years. It's not like he is a former 1st round pick who maybe-just-maybe will grow into all that potential people saw in him. People didn't expect him to be good so he went in the 7th round, and he's followed through on those expectations by not being good for FOUR years. Shocker.

Worst case scenario, you use a 7th round pick on a new tackle, he's just as crappy as Hart, but at least you're only paying him league minimum to be crappy.

(03-19-2019, 12:33 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Is Hart really a good option in a rebuild even though he is young as he is also bad. Chances are he's never going to be good. Can he get to average? Maybe.

Saffold for 4 years is pretty good.  I doubt Hart is still here in 4 years.

Coaches think they can save everyone. He has starting experience which helps when fixing other issues. Erick Flowers who is an epic bust was just signed to a 1 year 4 million dollar deal. Linemen with experience will always get second chances it seems. His deal is a prove it deal no matter what the numbers look like on the surface, a prove it that is probably backed with a high pick to replace him if not.

Saffold may not even be playing in 4 years. I'll trend to the side of Taylor on this one. If it was someone he wasn't tied to I'd be more in but if he really wanted someone he had connections to I feel like they would have got it done. Instead they went with a younger option in Miller, which again makes me think it's a youth movement. 

(03-19-2019, 12:32 PM)Schmitbuck Wrote: While I like the idea of getting a RT in round 1, I don't like the idea of reaching for a tackle at 11. You have to wonder if the Bengals don't like tackles that'll be available at 11 or think one they do like will last until then. I'm curious to see how the mock drafts start looking in the upcoming weeks. 

The line by default should be improved from last year. Price should be much improved and we going from a poor performing guard to at least an average guard (who's still young and has played at a high level at times). 

I don't know that we can bank on the line improving due to another year passing.

We thought Ced and Fisher would improve and they didn't.

Miller was bad for parts of 3 years in Buffalo then decent last year, but he still was worse than Redmond pass blocking.

Glenn has been injured each of the past 3 years. Chances are he'll be injured this year...then who do you go to?

Boling, while our best lineman has been showing signs of decline.

(03-19-2019, 12:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: You don't even know if you can get your #1 T at #11.  We could possibly be looking at our 3rd or even 4th best T prospect there.  Do you really want to be in a position where you have to pass on a Devin White, Clellen Farrell, Quentin Williams, TJ Hockenson, Kyler Murray, or Dwayne Haskins that falls to you because you HAVE to take Jawaan Taylor?

To be clear, I have no issue taking a T at #11 as long as it's a reasonable value.  However, setting ourselves up for "T or bust in the 1st" isn't a good way to do business.

To be fair, the need for OL is still nearly identical whether you go with Saffold+Smith vs Miller+Hart. Saffold and Smith would be older stopgap solutions but better quality whereas Miller and Hart have more time to grow but have been lower performers at this point. There's risk with both options.

(03-19-2019, 12:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: You don't even know if you can get your #1 T at #11.  We could possibly be looking at our 3rd or even 4th best T prospect there.  Do you really want to be in a position where you have to pass on a Devin White, Clellen Farrell, Quentin Williams, TJ Hockenson, Kyler Murray, or Dwayne Haskins that falls to you because you HAVE to take Jawaan Taylor?

To be clear, I have no issue taking a T at #11 as long as it's a reasonable value.  However, setting ourselves up for "T or bust in the 1st" isn't a good way to do business.

You don't if those guys you still take them. There are more than 1 round to the draft and the data shows with O line you can reasonably get really good linemen all the way through the 4th round at a high rate. Day 2 in this draft is chalk full of solid tackles who can start day 1.

(03-19-2019, 12:43 PM)Au165 Wrote: You don't if those guys you still take them. There are more than 1 round to the draft and the data shows with O line you can reasonably get really good linemen all the way through the 4th round at a high rate. Day 2 in this draft is chalk full of solid tackles who can start day 1.

I tend to favor going OT in the 2nd Round unless one of our top guys is there.

I'd still go White in Round 1 or whoever is there.

(03-19-2019, 10:38 AM)THE PISTONS Wrote: He is my problem with the Bengals offseason, they brought back known mediocre players at the risk of trying to actually upgrade.

Option A:
RT Bobby Hart: 3 years $16 to 21 million. We'll call it $18 million as he will hit some of his incentives. So $6 million a year. He graded out at 56.2 or the #69 Tackle.

G John Miller: 3 years, $16.5 million. So $5.5 million a year. He's generally been up and down through his career. Last year, he was good in run blocking and poor in pass protection. 64.3 PFF, #25 Guard.

There is a pretty sizeable risk to Miller. He struggled in a zone blocking scheme and his pass protection was actually worse than Redmond last year. He is a good run blocker though.

That's $11.5 million between those 2 players.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a position other than Tackle.



Option B:
Guard Rodger Saffold - 4 years $44 million. We'll simplify that to $11 million a year. Graded out at 72.8 which was the #9 Guard.

Use 1st or 2nd Round pick on a Tackle.

Sign Andre Smith as a backup Tackle.

This costs probably $2 million or so more than Option B, but you get an elite Guard like Saffold with way less risk than Miller. Starting a drafted Tackle is a bit of a risk, but Bobby Hart has been in the league for 4 years and he's mediocre. One of the worst starting Tackles in the league. Chance are a drafted Tackle won't be worse...and could be better.

What do you think? Also, do you have any other Options?

 We already signed Hart and Miller, not sure why we need to rehash the same bullshit over and over in every thread, every day? It's done, get over it and get over yourselves. Nothing you can do or say, matters to what has been done or what will be done in the future. I'm totally amazed by the multi-faceted people here in this forum! Not only can they run a NFL Personal department but also run the Bengals accounting department...

(03-19-2019, 12:23 PM)Whatever Wrote: You don't even know if you can get your #1 T at #11.  We could possibly be looking at our 3rd or even 4th best T prospect there.  Do you really want to be in a position where you have to pass on a Devin White, Clellen Farrell, Quentin Williams, TJ Hockenson, Kyler Murray, or Dwayne Haskins that falls to you because you HAVE to take Jawaan Taylor?

To be clear, I have no issue taking a T at #11 as long as it's a reasonable value.  However, setting ourselves up for "T or bust in the 1st" isn't a good way to do business.

I would pass on Murray at 11 simply because I don't see him as a long term NFL QB - think Manzel mentality. The moment things don't go Murray's way he's going to become a pouty whiner and morph into a cancer.

Of those guys you mentioned I'd take White first factoring in talent and team need.

If Haskins falls to us and we take him, we'd have to make another FA move to fill the void as Haskins won't likely contribute in year 1.

 

(03-19-2019, 12:55 PM)sandwedge Wrote:  We already signed Hart and Miller, not sure why we need to rehash the same bullshit over and over in every thread, every day? It's done, get over it and get over yourselves. Nothing you can do or say, matters to what has been done or what will be done in the future. I'm totally amazed by the multi-faceted people here in this forum! Not only can they run a NFL Personal department but also run the Bengals accounting department...

So your ideal message board would be a bunch of posts that say: 'Wow - Nice move! Let's see how the season plays out!'

There is a lot of research out there on players that lets you see Hart has been bad. Miller mediocre. And Saffold a Top 10 Guard.

People just choose to ignore the past track record and call Saffold old and assume he will decline, while assuming Miller and Hart will improve.

(03-19-2019, 12:37 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: I don't know that we can bank on the line improving due to another year passing.

We thought Ced and Fisher would improve and they didn't.

Miller was bad for parts of 3 years in Buffalo then decent last year, but he still was worse than Redmond pass blocking.

Glenn has been injured each of the past 3 years. Chances are he'll be injured this year...then who do you go to?

Boling, while our best lineman has been showing signs of decline.

Our team's philosophy is primarily to build through the draft. You have to bank on your draft picks improving and the consequences when they don't.

No denying Ced and Fisher didn't improve enough, but based on Price's work ethic at OSU, I'm hopeful of a large improvement since he's healthy this offseason.

Are you able to see how Miller performed in his previous years rankings-wise? The Bills were kind of a s**t-show last year and I've actually heard it was his worst year. I wonder how much his pass blocking rankings are skewed by having Josh Allen running around behind him. The Bengals see him as an improvement. 

And you could be right about Glenn. I think they still need to address line in the first 3 rounds for depth and a year from now at least, but I don't want them to reach for a guy at 11.