(04-02-2019, 05:21 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I tell you what I can see.  We never lost a single game because of it in 16 years under Marvin.

However in 2010 we lost a game because Marvin (or whoever called the plays) decided we should throw the ball around up by 7 with 2:30 left in a game where our defense had only allowed 7 points.

Some 2010 game eh? Really specific.

Such BS Fred. We were the worst 2nd half team i have ever seen under Marv.

We would start out fast and go stagnant in the 3rd quarter so many times i cannot even mention all of the times.

In the Chargers Playoff game we were up 10-7 at half and we were running the ball well. In the 2nd half we went away from the run and never scored another point, we just turned the ball over and lost the game. Just do what is working, that is all i have ever asked.

(04-02-2019, 05:23 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Except when Marvin stuck with what was working you all accused him of being "too predictable".

If he stuck with what was working we would of won the game and nobody would be accusing him of anything.

(04-02-2019, 05:27 PM)Joelist Wrote: Can ZT change the culture here? Sure he can.

If all he manages to do is get the team motivated and ready to play for every game so we don't come out listless and flat like we constantly did with Marvin then that is an accomplishment. If he shows he can coach properly during halftime so we stop being sluggish in the third quarter even better. Better game day coaching would mean a lot.

This is what i believe as well, nice post as usual Joelist.

(04-02-2019, 06:35 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Our team was torn apart in free agency starting after 2015 too. Look at all the guys we lost starting then.

Shouldn't of let Whit go, biggest mistake our FO made in the last decade IMO.

(04-02-2019, 01:34 PM)THE PISTONS Wrote: Track Record - We've had the same de facto GM for the past 27 years of 0 playoff wins.

You can cite Dallas and Washington as reasons free agency doesn't work...but the Bengals model is beyond broken as EVERY SINGLE TEAM in the league has won a playoff game since we last did.

And as far as Coach...what other owner keeps a coach for 15 years and 0-7 in the playoffs? GM's and Coaches get fired all the times in other cities.

Had we changed coaches every 3-4-5 years, maybe we stumble upon the right model at some point. Instead, we went the known mediocre route.

And just what the hell do you want to do with that GM, we have had for 27 years? Fire him? Good luck in case you don't know it, he owns the team. Good luck with that.
Coach Taylor has been with us for 3 months, so crying about him possibly being here for 15 years is a waste of time.

(04-02-2019, 01:47 PM)Nately120 Wrote: I'm not being doom and gloom, but I'm just trying to keep realistic expectations.

And I'll have you know I"m quite chill...odd how you claim ZT has brought more energy than any HC we've had in 30 years but you want the fans to chill out.

Also, as big a joke as the Cowboys and Redskins have been they have both hoisted the Lombardi since the last time we won a playoff game.  Mike Brown has been running the show here for almost 30 years so forgive me if I'm not expecting sweeping changes just because the guy hired a millennial and got rid of the same ol' Marv.

I will admit though, it's possible Mike Brown hands the keys of the kingdom to ZT and ZT is exactly the man to turn this franchise around.  It's a long shot, but hey, so are the Browns to make the SB, right?

The point about being chill is people already calling Coach Taylor a failure, overwhelmed and few other things. 
Cowboys and Redskins, I believe last hoisted the Lombardi long before FA....  Not sure what you can do about MB, since he is the owner....

(04-02-2019, 07:24 PM)sandwedge Wrote: The point about being chill is people already calling Coach Taylor a failure, overwhelmed and few other things. 

Calling him a failure already is pretty absurd, but I'm not sure if anyone is saying that.  There are some aspects of him that do make him look like he's a bit in over his hand and/or towing the company line, though.

(04-02-2019, 07:24 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Cowboys and Redskins, I believe last hoisted the Lombardi long before FA....

And we haven't won a single playoff game since 1990.  Cowboys won the SB in 92, 93, and 95 and the Redskins won it in 91.  My point is that you cited two franchises that have won a total of 4 SBs since we've even won a playoff game since MB took over.  That's where the pessimism comes in.

(04-02-2019, 07:24 PM)sandwedge Wrote: Not sure what you can do about MB, since he is the owner....

Well, nothing...but one thing I certainly can't do is get too optimistic about our chances, that's for sure.

(04-02-2019, 07:24 PM)sandwedge Wrote: The point about being chill is people already calling Coach Taylor a failure, overwhelmed and few other things. 
Cowboys and Redskins, I believe last hoisted the Lombardi long before FA....  Not sure what you can do about MB, since he is the owner....

Classic anti-free agency myth that all free agents are overpaid like the Redskins do.

The reality is that there are moderately priced free agents out there.

Then several tiers below them you'll find BW Webb, Kerry Wynn, and Jonathan Miller. (Miller was in and out of the starting lineup for 3 years.)

The BHCF has two very bad faults given he wants badly to win with his business model. First, it would be very very cheap to double the scouting staff and significantly increase the odds of winning with better drafted players. And second, perhaps corrected , he could spend the same money on a better coaching staff. But he is dumb so he won't make the easy change on the scouts. Stubborn morons will do that. All hail the BHCF!,

Now watch someone go and say that interior decorating doesn't win championships..  They're doing some interior decorating which OBVIOUSLY translates into championships..  DID YOU SEE THOSE PICTURES OF 2X4'S AND DRYWALL? every team will be green with envy and unable to keep up.. 

(03-31-2019, 04:56 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: That's the $64 question

Let's face it that's the true hurdle he has to clear. It's not who the position coaches are, it's not what players he gets in free agency, it's not who he drafts, it's not what offense he runs.

This team has a history of losing nearly three decades long, even in the playoff seasons we were one and done all 7 times ! We fold up under the lights nearly every time, rarely do we beat the good teams in the league when we need it most. We implode at the slightest sign of adversity way more often than not. The Steelers have owned us for far to long now. And the list goes on.

Can he get that culture turned around ? Can he win with the leagues worst GM ? Can he get this team to focus on team and not I ? Can he get this team to stay steady under pressure, can he get them to buy in ? Can he get them to not listen to the noise against Pittsburgh ?

That's his biggest test of all

Mark Twain once said of Cincinnati (the town, not the Bengals  ) "When the end of the world comes, I want to be in Cincinnati because they are always 20 years behind the times".  

The Bengals must stop playing conservative (on both sides of the ball) and become an innovative and aggressive team.  Do this, get more energy out of your players, and I think the rest will follow.  

(04-02-2019, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Why is that? Not like Marv was some great coach. Like i said in my original post he sabotaged his own players many times with his poor in game management and never putting his foot down on other teams when we were up. He continually started poorer players over better ones many times, our teams almost always choked in Primetime games and ALWAYS choked in the Playoffs.

Not saying Taylor and company are going to be better but i tend to believe that he and company will be....

I truly believe that coaching was our biggest problem here, not the players.

We will see if this is the case or not soon enough and i cannot wait to see the truth.

Agreed on the issues with Marvin. I just think that the players are equally to blame for the choking, and flat play, etc. Those guys are still here and we are hoping that they will transform into something that they proved not to be under Marvin Lewis? It’s possible but I don’t like the odds of it happening. Old habits die hard and the old habits outnumber the new ones at this point, so I will wait to declare a “New Dey” until I see the sun come up.

(04-02-2019, 12:36 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: It's hard to gauge with how the Bengals keep everything so close to the vest......but I just don't see it the way you guys do.  They have allowed him to assemble the largest coaching staff in team history, and are allowing him to pick his guys....for better or for worse.  It seems he's getting a bit of leeway to me.

I don’t disagree with that, as it seems he pretty much had the freedom to choose his own staff. I don’t know if he is being extended that same freedom over the roster and if he is, what he’s done with it so far doesn’t inspire much confidence in me. There is still time for improvements to be made so I’m not writing the guy off just yet, but my Bengals PTSD has the optimism a little slow to activate these days.

(04-03-2019, 08:36 AM)HuDey Wrote: I don’t disagree with that, as it seems he pretty much had the freedom to choose his own staff. I don’t know if he is being extended that same freedom over the roster and if he is, what he’s done with it so far doesn’t inspire much confidence in me. There is still time for improvements to be made so I’m not writing the guy off just yet, but my Bengals PTSD has the optimism a little slow to activate these days.

Yep, I was all excited ! Marvin quit then in the days following the bulk of the staff was released and ZT Got to hire his own staff, I was pumped.

Since then the rug has been pulled halfway out from under it. Took forever to hire a DC. The new Oline coach raises questions. Then we pulled a normal perhaps even less than normal Bengals free agent period and re-signed some questionable players and did little outside FA's.

And the old Bengal fan doubts are creeping back in.

I still have high hopes for the ZT era, my level of concern just keeps raising though.

(04-03-2019, 08:36 AM)HuDey Wrote: I don’t disagree with that, as it seems he pretty much had the freedom to choose his own staff. I don’t know if he is being extended that same freedom over the roster and if he is, what he’s done with it so far doesn’t inspire much confidence in me. There is still time for improvements to be made so I’m not writing the guy off just yet, but my Bengals PTSD has the optimism a little slow to activate these days.

I am A hearing you on that one my friend.  

As to the rest, very valid observation.  I agree with you, if that's the best he's got, yikes!  I am like you, I have to wonder if he is getting the same leeway with the roster.  If he is, I sure hope he knows what he's doing.  Who knows, we've (most of us) said coaching has been holding the team back for years, maybe he sees something we don't.

(04-02-2019, 05:41 PM)fredtoast Wrote: During Marvin's tenure only two teams (NE, GB) had a larger first quarter scoring margin than the Bengals (+260).  One thing we did well was start fast.

I can agree with that, unless it was primetime, Stoolers, or playoffs.

(04-03-2019, 08:56 AM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Yep, I was all excited ! Marvin quit then in the days following the bulk of the staff was released and ZT Got to hire his own staff, I was pumped.

Since then the rug has been pulled halfway out from under it. Took forever to hire a DC. The new Oline coach raises questions. Then we pulled a normal perhaps even less than normal Bengals free agent period and re-signed some questionable players and did little outside FA's.

And the old Bengal fan doubts are creeping back in.

I still have high hopes for the ZT era, my level of concern just keeps raising though.

You would have to take into account the history of the franchise and the late start as causes for the slow process of hiring coaches. Cincinnati has a notorious reputation around the league. The weeks leading up to the SB saw numerous prospective coaches were signed before the Bengals could even sign ZT. They say good things come to those who wait. We have been waiting for three decades. COME ON GOOD THINGS.

(04-02-2019, 03:46 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Why is that? Not like Marv was some great coach. Like i said in my original post he sabotaged his own players many times with his poor in game management and never putting his foot down on other teams when we were up. He continually started poorer players over better...

Agreed!!!

It got worse as time went on.

I think you'll see that a lot of times new coaches come in and bring some veterans in with then which helps to change the culture.

I don't know that guys from Buffalo and the Giants will do that much here.

(04-02-2019, 12:36 PM)WychesWarrior Wrote: It's hard to gauge with how the Bengals keep everything so close to the vest......but I just don't see it the way you guys do.  They have allowed him to assemble the largest coaching staff in team history, and are allowing him to pick his guys....for better or for worse.  It seems he's getting a bit of leeway to me.

I hope he wins early and often for everyone's sake.

(04-03-2019, 10:21 AM)XsandOs Wrote: I hope he wins early and often for everyone's sake.

One thing we'll have going for us early on is that we'll have a new offense and defense so teams will likely not be able to gameplan against us as easily.

Culture change can ONLY come from the top, nowhere else. The middle or bottom can attempt to change it (like CP in his day going to see the great tree sloth) but it wont stick. If the players and coaches know that deep down the owner wont do the things needed to truly compete it will wear them down and they cannot all then produce at 100%. It is Human Nature.

For a coach or player to say to himself "We will do the best we can given what we have" does not provide the same motivation as him saying "this team really wants to win and I have to do my part". ZT can spout all he wants about how much the BHCF wants to win but after a while, after various attempts to get better players or or more help or a practice facility or whatever, he will get worn down - Bungalized if you like.

(04-03-2019, 08:19 AM)HuDey Wrote: Agreed on the issues with Marvin. I just think that the players are equally to blame for the choking, and flat play, etc. Those guys are still here and we are hoping that they will transform into something that they proved not to be under Marvin Lewis? It’s possible but I don’t like the odds of it happening. Old habits die hard and the old habits outnumber the new ones at this point, so I will wait to declare a “New Dey” until I see the sun come up.

OTOH, remember when Marvin first came here?

He inherited a lousy team (4 wins IIRC). I don't recall if he brought in any "top player talent" (I doubt that he did) and we were 8-8 the following year.

So a new coach, a new staff, new methods, etc. can help. Will we make the playoffs this season? My "talent meter" says no ... because we have at least 8 serious holes to fill (RG, RT, TE, LB1, LB2, CB, DL, Edge) and we can't fill them all in one draft.