(04-06-2019, 12:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It is the same talent that they have had for the last three straight losing seasons, just three years older now.

Also keep in mind that we as fans tend to overrate the players on our team. (Everyone does it for their team, it's not Bengals-fan exclusive. There were some crazy Patriots fans saying Julian Edelman > AJ Green relatively recently.)

They haven't drafted a single Pro Bowler in the last 5 years. The only Pro Bowler they have drafted in the last 7 years was Tyler Eifert, who has started 5 games in the last 3 years. Then you tack on their FA approach and it's not a recipe for success.

While they do have some talent, I would point out that it's nowhere near as much as we like to think. A lot of that talent has gotten older/left, and simply not been replaced with equal levels of talent.

I would add that we have had 22 picks in the last two years and of the players that are left many have not made an impact. If the coaches can be better than the ML staff at maximizing their talent we will make some ground up. If the player are busts we are as good as starting over.

No Pro Bowlers in 5 years is horrid.

As far as anyone knows the Browns will come out of the gate right into the emergency ward like we did last year. Injuries can change any team, but they've also got a lot of 'me first' type players who won't be happy getting the ball just a few times a game.. It's still quite up in the air. Cleveland as everyone knows makes a sport of ruining QBs. Will they pull it off again to keep their streak alive? 

(04-06-2019, 12:46 PM)grampahol Wrote: As far as anyone knows the Browns will come out of the gate right into the emergency ward like we did last year. Injuries can change any team, but they've also got a lot of 'me first' type players who won't be happy getting the ball just a few times a game.. It's still quite up in the air. Cleveland as everyone knows makes a sport of ruining QBs. Will they pull it off again to keep their streak alive? 

Revised history.

AJ Green played 9 games (Bengals had a 5-4 record)
Andy Dalton played 11 games (Bengals had a 5-6 record)
Brown went on the IR the same week as AJ Green, after they were 5-4.
Carl Lawson played in 7 games, which is still not out of the gate, but damn near half the season. (He wasn't even a starter.)

Mixon missed 2 games, but Gio was healthy for them. Gio missed 2 games, but Mixon was healthy for them, they never were both out.
Burfict wasn't hurt but suspended to start the season.
Tyler Eifert was ALWAYS going to be hurt. If a team doesn't plan for expecting Tyler Eifert to get instantly hurt, that's on the team.


People keep spinning the myth that they fell apart after the 4-1 start, but really they made it to about the halfway point of the season before they fell apart... but that narrative isn't as fun to push because 5-4 or 5-6 isn't as good sounding as 4-1 when trying to make excuses.

(04-06-2019, 01:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Revised history.

AJ Green played 9 games (Bengals had a 5-4 record)
Andy Dalton played 11 games (Bengals had a 5-6 record)
Brown went on the IR the same week as AJ Green, after they were 5-4.
Carl Lawson played in 7 games, which is still not out of the gate, but damn near half the season. (He wasn't even a starter.)

Mixon missed 2 games, but Gio was healthy for them. Gio missed 2 games, but Mixon was healthy for them, they never were both out.
Burfict wasn't hurt but suspended to start the season.
Tyler Eifert was ALWAYS going to be hurt. If a team doesn't plan for expecting Tyler Eifert to get instantly hurt, that's on the team.


People keep spinning the myth that they fell apart after the 4-1 start, but really they made it to about the halfway point of the season before they fell apart... but that narrative isn't as fun to push because 5-4 or 5-6 isn't as good sounding as 4-1 when trying to make excuses.

Sorry LL.. I'm really not trying to push any narrative here. The fact of the matter is a bunch of injuries hurt this team. Was it technically out of the gate? No, but so what?  But go ahead of pick apart every word and time line.. I'll get over it.. See? I already did.. 

(04-06-2019, 12:41 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: It is the same talent that they have had for the last three straight losing seasons, just three years older now.

Also keep in mind that we as fans tend to overrate the players on our team. (Everyone does it for their team, it's not Bengals-fan exclusive. There were some crazy Patriots fans saying Julian Edelman > AJ Green relatively recently.)

They haven't drafted a single Pro Bowler in the last 5 years. The only Pro Bowler they have drafted in the last 7 years was Tyler Eifert, who has started 5 games in the last 3 years. Then you tack on their FA approach and it's not a recipe for success.

While they do have some talent, I would point out that it's nowhere near as much as we like to think. A lot of that talent has gotten older/left, and simply not been replaced with equal levels of talent.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
EDIT: It's not an end-all-be-all metric of talent, obviously, but the Bengals only have 6 Pro Bowlers on their entire roster by my count...

Andy Dalton
AJ Green
Geno Atkins
Carlos Dunlap
Kevin Huber (yes, he got in once)
Tyler Eifert (and proceeded to get hurt there too)

The only player on that list under the age of 30 is Tyler Eifert (2019 will be his age 29 season), and as stated previously, he's made 5 starts the last 3 years.

They only have a single 1st Team All-Pro on their entire roster, and that's Geno Atkins and he turned 31 a couple days ago.

I get that. That's discounting the fact that Joe Mixon and Tyler Boyd are studs though. So it's not like they've been completely whiffing. We don't know who emerges this year either... Maybe nobody does. I also realize that the new staff may completely suck, but I'm willing to wait for them to actually do that before I write us off for this year.

(04-06-2019, 11:04 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if they aren't a SB contender, they swept the Bengals last year and then got significantly better in the offseason. The Bengals didn't.

The Steelers probably aren't getting better, but once again, they swept the Bengals, and the Bengals big offseason move was to bring back Bobby Hart.

Lamar Jackson didn't know how to throw and the Ravens still beat the Bengals last year. Bengals only beat the Ravens early in the season when Flacco was around.

- - - - - - - - - - -

I'm not sure I see where the confidence the Bengals can compete is coming from. This is the same team that has three straight losing seasons, went 1-5 in the division last year, and whose star FA acquisitions were a 4th-5th string CB and a guard who is only a little better than Alex Redmond.

That is yet to be seen with the Stains, if you have faith in them being good i don't know what to tell you. They always find a way to screw it up and they brought in another diva in OBJ to pair with Mayfield. They are the darlings of the NFL right now being talked up by everybody, even you i see.

Nice that you bring up Miller (kind of) after Bobby Hart. You never even mention us cleaning house and bringing in pretty much an entirely new coaching staff. I will maintain that coaching was our biggest problem here, our Linebackers were terrible last year and Haslett is now gone, thank God.

We will see how the draft goes but i would understand what you are saying if Marv and Haslett were still here, they are not.

(04-06-2019, 01:01 PM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Revised history.

AJ Green played 9 games (Bengals had a 5-4 record)
Andy Dalton played 11 games (Bengals had a 5-6 record)
Brown went on the IR the same week as AJ Green, after they were 5-4.
Carl Lawson played in 7 games, which is still not out of the gate, but damn near half the season. (He wasn't even a starter.)

Mixon missed 2 games, but Gio was healthy for them. Gio missed 2 games, but Mixon was healthy for them, they never were both out.
Burfict wasn't hurt but suspended to start the season.
Tyler Eifert was ALWAYS going to be hurt. If a team doesn't plan for expecting Tyler Eifert to get instantly hurt, that's on the team.


People keep spinning the myth that they fell apart after the 4-1 start, but really they made it to about the halfway point of the season before they fell apart... but that narrative isn't as fun to push because 5-4 or 5-6 isn't as good sounding as 4-1 when trying to make excuses.

1.) 4-1 isn't a myth it actually happened and we beat two playoff teams during that stretch.
2.) Boyd, Mixon, Lawson, Bates, and Jackson are all pro bowl caliber players who happened to be under 30.
3.) The Bengals were 5-3 with both AJ and Andy in the lineup. They didn't play together at all for the rest of the season after the Bucs game.

(04-06-2019, 11:04 AM)TheLeonardLeap Wrote: Even if they aren't a SB contender, they swept the Bengals last year and then got significantly better in the offseason. The Bengals didn't.

The Browns swept the Jeff Driskel-led Bengals. I think that's a key point to note.
The Browns beat nobody last year. Nobody. And if we're going to hold the fact that Bengals have had three straight losing seasons against them, I think we also need to consider that it's been twelve years since the Browns finished above .500.
They have a lot to prove, and anyone of these shiny new toys could get hurt in an instance anyways.

Yep...they most certainly can.

(04-06-2019, 01:29 PM)Jakeypoo Wrote: 1.) 4-1 isn't a myth it actually happened and we beat two playoff teams during that stretch.
2.) Boyd, Mixon, Lawson, Bates, and Jackson are all pro bowl caliber players who happened to be under 30.
3.) The Bengals were 5-3 with both AJ and Andy in the lineup. They didn't play together at all for the rest of the season after the Bucs game.

(04-06-2019, 01:40 PM)NKURyan Wrote: The Browns swept the Jeff Driskel-led Bengals. I think that's a key point to note.
The Browns beat nobody last year. Nobody. And if we're going to hold the fact that Bengals have had three straight losing seasons against them, I think we also need to consider that it's been twelve years since the Browns finished above .500.
They have a lot to prove, and anyone of these shiny new toys could get hurt in an instance anyways.

All true.

Depends on if we ever fix the offensive line. It gets a tiny bit better every year.. baby steps i guess with the clowns in the front office. But if we have hart starting again then sadly i say no.

(04-06-2019, 12:12 PM)jason Wrote: TO > OBJ

There... I said it.

for sure!

(04-06-2019, 12:12 PM)jason Wrote: TO > OBJ

There... I said it.

(04-06-2019, 02:29 PM)GodFather Wrote: for sure!

TO was 37 years old when we had him.

OBJ is 26 and in the prime of his career.

Can we compete in the AFCN? Of course. We're good for a split against the Ravens and hopefully, coaching makes a difference against Pittsburgh and we're healthier when we play the Browns. 3-3 is doable, 4-2 if we sweep Ravens. Our chances really don't have to do much with the other teams. The real questions are:

Is Bobby Hart suddenly going to turn into an average RT? If they draft a guy and he outplays Hart in the preseason, would he start despite Hart being paid like a starter? Is John Miller really that big of an upgrade from Redmond and will it help Hart? I'm not worried about Price, I think he'll take a step in year 2, but if he doesn't the coaches will need to put Hopkins at C and not waste any time. Boling is still solid and Glenn is good when he's healthy. Too bad that's only for 10 games or so. They'll def need a tackle in the first 3 rounds.

Is a premium pick at Linebacker going to make this group massively better? Preston Brown is a 2 down at most linebacker, Vigil is average at best. The rest of the guys are unproven or trash (Nickerson). Is a guy like Zach Brown still on the table as he's still on the market? Will they get the Jets to agree to send Darron Lee for a 5th or 6th? Maybe Malik Jefferson surprises us. You never know but they shouldn't bet on it.

No way the defense is as bad as it was last year, but can they play up to their talent level and not to be mediocre to where we'll settle for "well, at least it's not Austin". Can the corners catch an INT (INTs aren't the most important stat but still a game-changing play)? Will the d-line play up to its potential especially if we add a premium pick at DT? Can Carl Lawson come back and not miss a step? And of course, league average linebacker play will help.

Can John Ross take the 3rd year leap that Boyd did and become a factor outside of the end zone? Can ZT and Callahan truly unlock him or will we be forced to draft a guy high?

If we lose AJ, Eifert for a couple of games, will the offense not suddenly die? Boyd showed he is capable of being a #1 and if Ross becomes more productive, you'll only need to worry about that #3 guy. Erickson has shown he's capable. Does Malone finally put it together and becomes a solid #4 WR? Maybe they'll draft a guy like Hakeem Butler in the first 3 rounds.

Can ZT and co. get more out of the guys that aren't starters? Depth (along with injuries and coaching) is really what sank us. I think a good amount of guys on this roster have been underperforming and if ZT can put some of them (not all cause most teams will have some bad players) in a place to succeed if we need them to, that'd be great and it'd be another example as to why Marvin's approach was flawed.

Obviously, every team has questions like these but they're not all going to come true. I say if they get better linebacker play, the line shows slight improvement and we don't have 20 IRs we can certainly be in the mix. Easier said than done obviously. Here's to hoping ZT is confident in his plan and he puts it together.

(04-06-2019, 02:59 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: TO was 37 years old when we had him.

OBJ is 26 and in the prime of his career.

Changes nothing about my statement.

TO > OBJ and every receiver not named Rice*


* Also greater than Sydney Rice

(04-06-2019, 04:29 PM)jason Wrote: Changes nothing about my statement.

TO > OBJ and every receiver not named Rice*


* Also greater than Sydney Rice

So you just made a broad statement that wasn’t really relevant to the discussion about the division. Got it.

Context is everything, and bringing up our 2010 team adding an over the hill TO to play with an over the hill Chad supposedly making us the best team on paper as similar to the Browns adding 2 elite players in their prime to an already up and coming team seems like a poor comparison.

I am of the opinion that Mayfield is overrated. When you look at his season outside of the two games against our historically bad defense and one against the similarly bad Falcons defense he was extremely average at best; in fact in their finale the Rats made him look like he didn't belong in the league.

Lamar (Terrell Pryor II) Jackson? Let's see what happens when all the teams they play scheme to take away his running and dare him to win by throwing.

The Stealers need to show they have another WR to go with JuJu and they lost other players as well. But to me they are the most likely to do well.

On our front, all the coaching changes and upcoming system changes make it hard to forecast. A LOT of our issues arose from coaching problems such as game preparation, failure to scheme to highlight what our players do well and just being outcoached on the sidelines. For example, let's look at the Offensive Line.

If we stay in a zone blocking scheme then we probably are going to have issues, as only Boling is actually suited to such a scheme. Everyone else they currently have (Price, Glenn, Miller, Hart and even Redmond) are better suited to drive blocking. I have to think ZT plans on going to a power scheme as it would also explain the visit of Jordan Mills.

Then there is LB. Will a new LB coach help our players develop better? To be honest, all too often last season it looked like Vigil was playing LB by himself as Nickerson and Evans looked totally clueless out there and Brown was hurt most of the season. Give us that early round LB combined with a healthy Brown and better LB coaching and the different to the defense will be huge. So long of course as our new DC realizes his secondary is filled with players much better in man coverage than in zone...

Now Mayfield looked like he “doesn’t belong in the league” based off one game?? A game where he threw for almost 400 yds and 3 TD (and yes 3 ints). Lmao

You’re too much Joelist. Never change.

(04-06-2019, 04:54 PM)Nicomo Cosca Wrote: So you just made a broad statement that wasn’t really relevant to the discussion about the division. Got it.

Context is everything, and bringing up our 2010 team adding an over the hill TO to play with an over the hill Chad supposedly making us the best team on paper as similar to the Browns adding 2 elite players in their prime to an already up and coming team seems like a poor comparison.

The 2009 Bengals swept the division, and made the playoffs. The 2018 Browns finished below .500, in 3rd place in the division, and well didn't make the playoffs. A washed up TO finished just shy of 1,000 yards receiving in 14 games. He also had 9 TDs... That's the same amount of TDs Sideshow Bob has the last 2 seasons combined in the prime of his career. Beckham hasn't shown very much durability in his career. I doubt we see him still playing in the NFL at age 37.

So at any rate... It's not ridiculous to claim that adding TO to a team who swept the division, had one of the best QBs and WRs of that era, a nasty defense, and a workhorse RB coming off the best season of his career made them the best team on paper. I think hindsight is blinding you. That team had accomplished more than the Browns have.

Best team on paper doesn't always translate. We all know about the "Dream Team" Eagles too.

(04-06-2019, 05:17 PM)jason Wrote: The 2009 Bengals swept the division, and made the playoffs. The 2018 Browns finished below .500, in 3rd place in the division, and well didn't make the playoffs. A washed up TO finished just shy of 1,000 yards receiving in 14 games. He also had 9 TDs... That's the same amount of TDs Sideshow Bob has the last 2 seasons combined in the prime of his career. Beckham hasn't shown very much durability in his career. I doubt we see him still playing in the NFL at age 37.

So at any rate... It's not ridiculous to claim that adding TO to a team who swept the division, had one of the best QBs and WRs of that era, a nasty defense, and a workhorse RB coming off the best season of his career made them the best team on paper. I think hindsight is blinding you. That team had accomplished more than the Browns have.

Best team on paper doesn't always translate. We all know about the "Dream Team" Eagles too.

Let’s hope not, because I think it’s fair to say we’re probably the worst team on paper considering it’s largely the same roster that has had 3 losing seasons in a row.

Btw I’m not implying OBJ is going to surpass TO when all is said and done. Just that adding a top 5 WR at age 26 who’s under contract for 5 years is a bigger deal (imo) than adding TO in his mid to late thirties. And then you have the addition of Hunt, who will give them a two headed monster at RB for the second half of the season.