(04-10-2019, 06:18 PM)fredtoast Wrote: Over the last 5 years NFL teams have recorded 52 season with at least 10 wins.  Only 15 of those 52 had QBs in the first four years of their career.  So you do the math.

You think Haskins will be an upgrade, but the odds are against that.  Only 7 of the 24 QBs taken in the first round since 2011 have a better career passer rating than Dalton.

Dalton averaged close to 10 wins a season in his first 5 seasons.  They have dipped since then.  Have you watched Haskins?  How easily he flips the ball to a receiver on a crossing route and hits him in stride and the receiver just pulls away because he didn't even have to reach to break stride?  Or how Haskins will wait and keep scanning the field and finding the receiver that has broken free and slings him a ball that hits him in the numbers 35 yards down field?  

And if you are only going to go with the odds, look at QBs that were able to sit one season behind a proven starter.  I bet their numbers look quite a bit better.  Haskins would have that luxury.  Plus, Dalton's best season was when McCarron was drafted.  No one seems to think about that angle, either.  

It isn't just Haskins vs. Dalton, either.  It is Haskins plus $30 million dollars of additonal (ok, $25 million because of his contract) cap space vs. Dalton.  That is a pretty tough argument for Dalton, wouldn't you agree?

(04-11-2019, 09:11 AM)Hoofhearted Wrote: Can someone help me understand why the Jets would do this trade? I'm still having a hard time figuring that out. Odell fetched a first, third and Peppers. Cooper got a first, but he's 24 years old. I think Amari is the closest example of what we can use as a gauge. But he also doesn't have a string of injuries, and, of course, is 6 years younger than AJ while also making 1.2 mil less. So I think we can safely say that AJ would probably not fetch a first round pick from most teams. Now add us receiving Lee and Moving up 8 spots in the draft order to the top 3? Just seems like highway robbery for the Bengals.

From the other thread:

They are in desperate need of a WR.  AJ is a proven commodity, and a WR selected at #17 is a crapshoot.  They are already paying CJ Moseley a ton of money at their LB spot so it makes Lee expendable.  AJ is absolutely worth the #17 pick by the number system.



You can argue that Haskins isn't the QB that you would want but he is absolutely a higher rated QB coming out of college than Trubisky, who also had just one year of starter experience, and was drafted #2 overall.  

The Jets think they have their QB now, and have made some good moves on defense.  They need a WR to draw coverage and help give them more of an outside threat.  I am not saying they would....I floated this idea to gauge interest on here and I believe the Bengals would have a better chance of winning a championship with Haskins, Lee, and an additional $25 million in cap space than they will paying Dalton and Green a combined $50 million.  I love Dalton and Green, but if I look at things objectively and like a business, I would reach out to the Jets to gauge interest.  

(04-11-2019, 08:42 AM)fredtoast Wrote: The fact that you have to make up a strawman (keep ALL our old players) proves that you can not argue with what I really said (keep our BEST players).

That's pretty weak.

No what is weak is you changing your statement about first round QBs. Sooner or later this team needs to go into full blown rebuild. The players that took us to five playoffs in a row have become long in the tooth. Over paying past their prime players just because they once were good isn't a formula for success.

(04-11-2019, 11:08 AM)Catmandude123 Wrote: No what is weak is you changing your statement about first round QBs. Sooner or later this team needs to go into full blown rebuild. The players that took us to five playoffs in a row have become long in the tooth. Over paying past their prime players just because they once were good isn't a formula for success.

The Bengals had the second youngest roster starting the 2018 season...I think the rebuild is already in progress.

(04-11-2019, 10:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: Have you watched Haskins?  How easily he flips the ball to a receiver on a crossing route and hits him in stride and the receiver just pulls away because he didn't even have to reach to break stride?  Or how Haskins will wait and keep scanning the field and finding the receiver that has broken free and slings him a ball that hits him in the numbers 35 yards down field?  

I have seen dozens of great college QBs.  Some of them work out in the NFL butmany of them don't.

(04-11-2019, 10:02 AM)SHRacerX Wrote: It isn't just Haskins vs. Dalton, either.  It is Haskins plus $30 million dollars of additonal (ok, $25 million because of his contract) cap space vs. Dalton.  That is a pretty tough argument for Dalton, wouldn't you agree?

Dalton is under contract for 2 more seasons at about $16 million.  That is a bargain for a proven starter like Dalton.

If it is so easy to just draft a new QB why does any team in the league ever give a QB a second contract?  And why would they pay them so much money if they are so easy to replace?

(04-11-2019, 12:04 PM)Synric Wrote: The Bengals had the second youngest roster starting the 2018 season...I think the rebuild is already in progress.

Teams going into the rebuilding process don't pay their aging vets(Dalton ,Green,Atkins and Dunlap)  80 mil while they are rebuilding. They trade them for other younger players to help the future.

(04-11-2019, 01:07 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Teams going into the rebuilding process don't pay their aging vets(Dalton ,Green,Atkins and Dunlap)  80 mil while they are rebuilding. They trade them for other younger players to help the future.

So dumping every player on a team is the only way to rebuild? I think getting younger on the bulk of the roster is rebuilding.

(04-11-2019, 01:07 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Teams going into the rebuilding process don't pay their aging vets(Dalton ,Green,Atkins and Dunlap)  80 mil while they are rebuilding. 

We are not re-building.

And the base salary for those four players this year is less than $40 million.

(04-11-2019, 01:07 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: They trade them for other younger players to help the future.

That's funny.  I could have sworn the re-building Rams brought in a 36 year old LT a couple of years ago.

(04-11-2019, 01:17 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We are not re-building.

And the base salary for those four players this year is less than $40 million.

Rebuilding is just getting younger that doesnt mean you have to start moving your star players...

I dont get what catmandude is getting at because NFL teams are required to spend most of the salary cap so someone is gonna get paid. I'm sure any team would love to be paying AJ Geno and Dunlap and even IF the FO wants to move on from Andy hes as good of a bridge QB as Case Keenum, Joe Flacco, or Teddy Bridgewater.

(04-11-2019, 01:02 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I have seen dozens of great college QBs.  Some of them work out in the NFL butmany of them don't.


Dalton is under contract for 2 more seasons at about $16 million.  That is a bargain for a proven starter like Dalton.

If it is so easy to just draft a new QB why does any team in the league ever give a QB a second contract?  And why would they pay them so much money if they are so easy to replace?

Do many of them destroy the #1 defense in college football?  And he showed improvement throughout his season.  Dalton's contract IS a bargain for the next two years, but after that...it surely won't be.  And MAYBE if they feel good about Haskins after one year behind Dalton, you could trade Dalton at a bargain contract for one year to a team in need of a QB.  

And where am I saying any of this is easy?  For me, it is about providing an idea to improve the team in the long haul.  Nothing about it is easy.  

(04-11-2019, 01:20 PM)fredtoast Wrote: That's funny.  I could have sworn the re-building Rams brought in a 36 year old LT a couple of years ago.

Its real funny they also got a rookie QB which let them have the money to sign Whit and other players. Hey I am saying that trading up for the right QB would possibly move the team forward. If it doesn't then you pick even higher the next year. Andy will always get between six to nine wins which keep them from getting the next top QB. Trade up now or later, or be happy being a middle of the pack team.

(04-11-2019, 01:12 PM)Synric Wrote: So dumping every player on a team is the only way to rebuild? I think getting younger on the bulk of the roster is rebuilding.

Getting better has a lot to do with your opponent getting older. The core players have value now but not so much in the next few years. They have accomplished as much as they ever will. Its a fact of life . Athletes regress with age. The Nfl knows the best way to beat  the Bengals. The Steelers could write a book on the subject.

(04-11-2019, 03:15 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: The core players have value now but not so much in the next few years. They have accomplished as much as they ever will. Its a fact of life . 

I don't think you know the meaning of "fact".

You know who else, other than Dalton, had not win a Super Bowl by age 31?

Len Dawson
Joe Theisman (did not win a single playoff game until he was 32)
Roger Stuabach
John Elway
Jim Plunkett
John UNitas
Doug Williams
Steve Young

Also, why would the Rams sign a 36 year old OT to a huge contract if he was not any good due to his age?

(04-11-2019, 03:01 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Trade up now or later, or be happy being a middle of the pack team.

We were a Super Bowl contender in 2015 with Dalton at QB.  We can do it again.  If we had never done anything but win 6 to 9 games with Dalton then you would have a point.

But you don't.

(04-11-2019, 03:15 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: Getting better has a lot to do with your opponent getting older. 

No it does not.

If another team gets better or worse that does not mean your team gets better or worse.

(04-11-2019, 05:33 PM)fredtoast Wrote: We were a Super Bowl contender in 2015 with Dalton at QB.  We can do it again.  If we had never done anything but win 6 to 9 games with Dalton then you would have a point.

But you don't.

What he did three years ago has nothing to do with what he will do in the future. He has had eight years they need to upgrade sometime. Or do we keep him until he's on SS.

(04-11-2019, 06:44 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: What he did three years ago has nothing to do with what he will do in the future.

Tell it to this guy.  He thinks differently

(04-11-2019, 03:01 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote:  Andy will always get between six to nine wins 

(04-11-2019, 06:44 PM)Catmandude123 Wrote: He has had eight years they need to upgrade sometime. Or do we keep him until he's on SS.

Were these guys drawing SS checks when they won Super Bowls?

(04-11-2019, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: You know who else, other than Dalton, had not win a Super Bowl by age 31?

Len Dawson
Joe Theisman (did not win a single playoff game until he was 32)
Roger Stuabach
John Elway
Jim Plunkett
John UNitas
Doug Williams
Steve Young

And what about the Rams LT?  Is he drawing SS?

(04-11-2019, 05:27 PM)fredtoast Wrote: I don't think you know the meaning of "fact".

You know who else, other than Dalton, had not win a Super Bowl by age 31?

Len Dawson
Joe Theisman (did not win a single playoff game until he was 32)
Roger Stuabach
John Elway
Jim Plunkett
John UNitas
Doug Williams
Steve Young

Also, why would the Rams sign a 36 year old OT to a huge contract if he was not any good due to his age?

I would bet that all or most had won at least a playoff game. You are saying Whit is as good now as he was when he was 25? Did Johnny U win a SB? Steve Young was stuck behind Montana, Staubach went four years in the Navy after college, Theisman played in Canada for four years, Williams played on the seventies version of the Browns.