(04-15-2019, 11:31 AM)Au165 Wrote: No, not really. If the staff believed that we wouldn't be doing this substantial of work on the top backers. There was a reason a lot of the guys on our roster went in later rounds and we simply saw the manifestation of those reasons on the field. We have a large group of back up quality linebackers, however our disinterest in investing in a higher potential LB is killing us now. I keep looking back to the fact we didn't even look for a bargain basement WLB in FA as an indication this team feels they need to make an early investment in linebacker.

Like anything, sure high picks could bust. History has shown us though that 4-3 linebackers have a much higher chance of succeeding the earlier they are drafted. Being drafted high doesn't make you good, however this shows that guys who display traits to make them worthy of high draft picks translate well to production maybe more so than many other positions..

Great points and we don't have Marv here anymore who was never the LB'er whisperer some thought he would be.

Rivers for example wasn't the best pick early.

We need some talent for both Tem and Turner to work with regardless.

(04-15-2019, 12:19 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Great points and we don't have Marv here anymore who was never the LB'er whisperer some thought he would be.

Rivers for example wasn't the best pick early.

We need some talent for both Tem and Turner to work with regardless.

Marvin fancied himself the LBer whisperer, but was he really ?

If you take a good hard look at his picks and the production he got from them it's not that good !

(04-15-2019, 12:02 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: I strongly feel our biggest single weakness bar none is the LBer group ! And this goes back further than last season. We've been getting sliced and diced and cooked and fried over the middle by TE's and RB's for quite some time. It's our glaring weakness and other teams know it !

Sure our Oline has issues, there's no doubt. But we can't continue the bleeding we've been doing with our inability to cover the middle. And tackle and shed blocks and be in position and so on for that matter.

We don't need more 4th and 5th and 6th round LBers, we've got a half dozen backup's now. We need impact players at that position group.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the starting LBs on the roster at this moment are Preston Brown, Nick Vigil, and Jordan Evans. The three depth players behind them are Malik Jefferson, Hardy Nickerson, and... Chris Worley?

They desperately need two new LBs. They don't HAVE to be in the first round, but I really hope at least one comes on Day 2 at the latest. The other just needs to be able to push Nickerson off the roster.

People keep mentioning PFF positional and future success grades and on the Locked On Bengals podcast Goodberry brought up something really interesting. If anyone else listened they can correct me, but I think they were talking about their college success grade and how it tracks very well with their NFL success. Keith Rivers was a 64 which was at or below average for a LB. Last year Malik Jefferson had the highest grade of any LB, which brings me to my question. If Malik really does pan out, who would sit? I mean he is physically insane and apparently lacks the mental aptitude or else just got on the Haslett's last nerve, who knows? But if it comes together for him, pairing him and Devin Bush on the outside would be insane.

I mean the only way I recognize Preston Brown is him running down the field chasing ball carriers.

(04-15-2019, 12:35 PM)yang Wrote: People keep mentioning PFF positional and future success grades and on the Locked On Bengals podcast Goodberry brought up something really interesting.  If anyone else listened they can correct me, but I think they were talking about their college success grade and how it tracks very well with their NFL success.  Keith Rivers was a 64 which was at or below average for a LB.  Last year Malik Jefferson had the highest grade of any LB, which brings me to my question.  If Malik really does pan out, who would sit?   I mean he is physically insane and apparently lacks the mental aptitude or else just got on the Haslett's last nerve, who knows?  But if it comes together for him, pairing him and Devin Bush on the outside would be insane.  

I mean the only way I recognize Preston Brown is him running down the field chasing ball carriers.

I hope it works out for Jefferson, I really do. That said, I'm not counting on it until he shows me something.

(04-15-2019, 01:16 PM)NKURyan Wrote: I hope it works out for Jefferson, I really do. That said, I'm not counting on it until he shows me something.

It was crazy to me that after Marvin took over the defense he never got Jefferson on the field.  It's especially galling since he kept trotting out Hardy (worse linebacker in the NFL) Nickerson.  Why did you even draft the guy?  I mean it's linebacker not rocket science.  You couldn't put him in on rushing downs?  Obvious passing downs?    It's one of the things that makes me really glad Marvin is finally gone. 

I mean seriously, some scouts had Malik rated as the best LB prospect in all of college on a number of levels.  That's just nuts.  You can't say he can't play. 

(04-15-2019, 04:50 PM)yang Wrote: It was crazy to me that after Marvin took over the defense he never got Jefferson on the field.  It's especially galling since he kept trotting out Hardy (worse linebacker in the NFL) Nickerson.  Why did you even draft the guy?  I mean it's linebacker not rocket science.  You couldn't put him in on rushing downs?  Obvious passing downs?    It's one of the things that makes me really glad Marvin is finally gone. 

I mean seriously, some scouts had Malik rated as the best LB prospect in all of college on a number of levels.  That's just nuts.  You can't say he can't play. 

Here is the issue with Jefferson, they had to simplify thing in college and move away from thinking and let him just run and strike. The issue with that in the NFL is the game is much more complex, especially in coverage and run fits. People don't realize that the play call isn't stagnant there are checks happening on the defensive side that are literally changing the way coverage are being played based on count and alignment. It's not as easy as that's my guy and I have to chase him like most people think. When it comes to run defense each player has a fit and things like motioning can cause that to change pre play and guys who can't process these things become liabilities no matter how athletic they are. 

I didn't like the pick at the time because in my mind it was the defensive version of John Ross. A great athlete who isn't up to par on the mental side of the game to use his skills at the level we need.

(04-15-2019, 04:50 PM)yang Wrote: It was crazy to me that after Marvin took over the defense he never got Jefferson on the field.  It's especially galling since he kept trotting out Hardy (worse linebacker in the NFL) Nickerson.  Why did you even draft the guy?  I mean it's linebacker not rocket science.  You couldn't put him in on rushing downs?  Obvious passing downs?    It's one of the things that makes me really glad Marvin is finally gone. 

I mean seriously, some scouts had Malik rated as the best LB prospect in all of college on a number of levels.  That's just nuts.  You can't say he can't play. 

That was Marvin's M.O.  He trotted a lot of veterans out and sat talented young players.  Or they might have been talented....some times we never found out (Burkhead).

I always hated that about Marv.  Hope Zach goes with the true "competition is at every position" and stand by it.  

(04-15-2019, 04:58 PM)Au165 Wrote: Here is the issue with Jefferson, they had to simplify thing in college and move away from thinking and let him just run and strike. The issue with that in the NFL is the game is much more complex, especially in coverage and run fits. People don't realize that the play call isn't stagnant there are checks happening on the defensive side that are literally changing the way coverage are being played based on count and alignment. It's not as easy as that's my guy and I have to chase him like most people think. When it comes to run defense each player has a fit and things like motioning can cause that to change pre play and guys who can't process these things become liabilities no matter how athletic they are. 

I didn't like the pick at the time because in my mind it was the defensive version of John Ross. A great athlete who isn't up to par on the mental side of the game to use his skills at the level we need.

I get the knock on his mental aspects, but the truth is he was very productive in college so these concepts aren't new to him.  They kept him limited in scope and it is the coach's job to coach him up.  You work him in during specific defined situations.  He was a sideline to sideline search and destroy missile and pass rusher in college.  He has freakish athletic ability on par with Bush and White.  And we sat him on the bench as we watched the worse linebacking corps in the NFL perform on the field.  I mean they were pathetic and I find it extremely hard to believe he couldn't have helped, especially after Lawson and others went down.   And I don't mean play him as a DE but in pass rushing fits. 

And with all that said, unless Oliver slips which I doubt, we'll take Devin Bush and I'll be good with it. It is a major hole and he is a pro bowl time LB. The we can hope Jefferson develops.

(04-17-2019, 10:38 AM)yang Wrote: I get the knock on his mental aspects, but the truth is he was very productive in college so these concepts aren't new to him.  They kept him limited in scope and it is the coach's job to coach him up.  You work him in during specific defined situations.  He was a sideline to sideline search and destroy missile and pass rusher in college.  He has freakish athletic ability on par with Bush and White.  And we sat him on the bench as we watched the worse linebacking corps in the NFL perform on the field.  I mean they were pathetic and I find it extremely hard to believe he couldn't have helped, especially after Lawson and others went down.   And I don't mean play him as a DE but in pass rushing fits. 

He was productive after they simplified things, so yes a lot of the concepts are very new. Free lancing in the NFL gets you gashed because every player on the field has potential to do so, it's why they are in the league. The mental aspect is the most important aspect of playing LB you can't just shove it to the side. Coming out many scouts knew he was going to take time to see the field because of his limitations on the mental side starting out. 

(04-15-2019, 12:25 PM)bengalfan74 Wrote: Marvin fancied himself the LBer whisperer, but was he really ?

If you take a good hard look at his picks and the production he got from them it's not that good !

No, Marv definately wasn't the LB whisperer lol

Besides Odell and Burfict there is not much to say about his success with Linebackers here.

Who knows how much he had to do with these guys either, i mean Paulie G was Burfict's coach.

(04-17-2019, 11:17 AM)Au165 Wrote: He was productive after they simplified things, so yes a lot of the concepts are very new. Free lancing in the NFL gets you gashed because every player on the field has potential to do so, it's why they are in the league. The mental aspect is the most important aspect of playing LB you can't just shove it to the side. Coming out many scouts knew he was going to take time to see the field because of his limitations on the mental side starting out. 

Just hoping Tem can get Malik learning the mental aspect cause everything Yang says is true about his ability physically.

(04-07-2019, 07:15 PM)Nate (formerly eliminate08) Wrote: Yes, tearing his ACL and his off the field issue will make him fall quite a ways.

If we don't select a DT in the first two rounds and he fell to us in the 3rd i would take him.

There is no chance he is there when we pick in the 2nd let alone 3rd round.  He is one of the few guys where if he is still on the board in the 2nd I would trade up in a heartbeat.  He was in my opinion the best defensive player in college football last year.